Men’s expectation

[Sparklesandspandexgallore]

Hi
Wanting others opinions.
A female relative of mine- late 20s, has just ended things with her boyfriend and I’m wondering if this is typical.
Some background: she has a very good career. Works for a global company as a manager, managing staff both in the country she lives and internationally. She is the youngest employee at that level and also in a predominantly male workforce. She has achieved a great deal in her career. She is also intelligent, kind, generous and very attractive, but not in a plastic bleached blonde/lip filler/botox way.
Anyhow my question is. Even though her latest boyfriend claimed to want an independent, intelligent, genuine, driven, motivated, hard working partner, when it came down to it he was more bothered about himself. He accused her of cheating whenever was abroad working. He told people that SHE was punching and he could do better, he insisted on knowing her body count, then called her single friend names when she had a one night stand, but said it was different for men.
This is not her only relationship. Her previous one ended when her boyfriend said he didn’t want to get married, have children etc etc. and he thought he had mental health issues. Next thing, he has met a younger woman - bleached blonde fake hair, lip filler, fake nails, fake tan etc etc and got engaged within 6 months of ending things with my relative. Again he texted her saying she was great, so motivated etc etc.
Long post but men saying they want someone who has a great career, is driven, intelligent, funny etc etc. is it all bullshit? Is what they want a submissive Barbie lookalike who will put them on a pedestal?
Yet I see post after post if men claiming they don’t want to be taken for a ride, want a woman who is financially independent but when they meet that person they can’t seem to handle it.

By the way my relative is not perfect. She herself had said she can be blunt and to the point, she had to be managing a team of men. All her ex’s have said that is something they admire , but really is it?
Do they just want to be mothered but can’t admit that?

Lots of them want someone to look after them. It’d be nice wouldn’t it!
They want the role where they feel manly taking the bins out and cooking stuff on a barbecue but expect everything else to be done for them!

Speaking from personal experience, my marriage ended largely (nut not solely) due to the fact my ex husband resented my career. He absolutely hated that I earned significantly more than him and worked less hours.

He wanted to fully control finances and dictate what I spent.

At the risk of generalising, I've noticed men like to cherry pick the best bits of alternative outcomes and mangle their own version. It's almost like male entitlement lets them believe they can have it all.

The simple version of this is they don't want to take responsibility for contraception by wearing a condom, but don't want a baby.

So they don't want a 'gold digger', which means a financially independent career woman. They like the status that comes with that, but also want the cook, cleaner, all with 50/50 financial split in the bills...

I've seen it at work too. Committing to doing a project in a certain way which means certain restrictions or downsides, and then when those downsides appear, decide to select elements of the alternative way they abandoned and shoehorn them in, risking the collapse of the whole project.

I have dated many, many men that initially love aspects of my personality that are reflected in your OP, because they are busy rejecting the stereotype of the 'broody financially dependent baby maker' which they are desperate to avoid. So they embrace the forward thinking, blunt and ambitious parts of me, until they decide that they're inconvenient and reject those too.

I've actually had men sigh at the end of the relationship and ask, 'Well why can't you be less x and more y?' Dude, the 'x' you said was a real plus at the beginning and you hated y? What am I, a fucking pick and mix buffet where you keep going back for a new combination?

I think you’re extrapolating an awful lot from two men who ended things with your cousin.

It depends on the man.

I have always far "outperformed" my DH in terms of my career. He has never been anything other than supportive. He is proud of what I've achieved and he has pushed me to have confidence in myself when I might have held back from putting myself forward. Plus he pulls his weight at home.

I honestly think that some men just want the “submissive” woman. Women with opinions, intelligence and ambition are not “agreeable”. I’m putting these words in inverted commas because I’ve heard these words used so many times.

I don't think men really care about careers all that much usually. That's not to say they necessarily have an issue with a woman being successful, although obviously some have. Just that it doesn't really feature in what attracts them to a partner. I imagine that in these days of increasing COL they do want someone who can make a financial contribution but they aren't generally as impressed with professional success as women are likely to be. There are certainly more men prepared to fully support women than women prepared to fully support men.

Men aren't all the same.

Some men like smart, motivated women.

Some men like smart, motivated women in general but find out there are personality aspects of one particular smart, motivated woman is a pain in the arse for other reasons.

Some like the idea of a smart, motivated woman but don't realise that a lot of very motivated people can be difficult people to have a relationship with because their career can come in front of everything else. When they discover this they become disillusioned.

Some men are arseholes and will say whatever they think will get someone in to bed.

etc.

PsychoHotDauce that’s exactly it.
They claim to want X, Y and Z in a partner but when it boils down to it, those exact qualities are the ones they despise.
This us what my relative said. Her ex told her he finished with his last partner because she lacked drive and ambition, yet there he was slaying her for having drive and ambition! He also got annoyed when she worked long hours. Errrr yes that comes with the territory dickhead.

I’ve also worked with women whose husbands refuse to take annual leave during school holidays. Very, very sad and disappointing. Yet there they are acting up as parent of the year in front of their friends and relatives.

You’re doing an awful lot of generalising here. No doubt there are plenty of women who want their male partner to be the main breadwinner and earn more than them, but are also ambitious and would find it a turn-off if they eventually out-earned their partner.

I think you might be right OP unfortunately.

Women now have more rights than ever in Western societies but many men have not ''evolved'' with the times.

They still deep down need to feel superior and see women as lesser human beings.

So any woman who is successful in her career and has her shit together, they can see as a threat to their fragile ego.

Of course it is not all men, but a fair number I would say still only see women as sex objects, maids and free childcare whose main value is her appearance.

You only have to look at what goes on online to see that misogyny is widespread.

Thatctancat yet you will see post after post of men saying they absolutely do not want a gold digger. That a woman must contribute 50/50 in the relationship. They also slate women who just want to be a sahp. That in their eyes a woman who is not contributing 50/50 in monetary terms is a gold digger.
You cannot say you don’t care about someone’s career, then say they absolutely must have one!
It’s fair to desire someone who works a 9 to 5 just as much as someone who works 70 hours a week, fine. But to seek out someone who is very successful and then criticise them for being very successful, well, you can’t feel any sort of sympathy for them,
These same men slate women who look fake, yet they they are shocking up with women who look like this.
I always think of Katie Price. Men slagging her off, claiming they don’t find that look remotely attractive. Yet she rose to fame entirely due to men liking they way she looked.

summerskyblue it certainly looks that way.
Very sad. Do women just stay single or lower their bar to virtually non existent.
What does the future hold. Who will have children? Just the vapid people? Will intelligent women just give up?

Well of course not all men. That’s why I’m asking.
By the way, I know lots of women who earn more than their husbands.
Yet, most of them rely on other women to help with domestic duties and childcare. I don’t think the same can be said the other way round though.

Generalizing hugely here, but men like smart, successful, well- travelled, high earning women BUT only if they are smarter, more successful, earn more etc.

My last bf wanted a woman who was attractive and didn’t age, young but at the same time mature, independent and a go-getter but would ultimately submit to him 🤨, had a low body count but would sleep with him straightaway, and smart but wouldn’t win against him in a debate. He told me that woman’s job is to ‘look fit and look after the children’, but at the same time he wanted her to be financially independent. I never worked out where he thought he was going to find this miracle lady. Scary times we live in really.

I have an extremely successful career, as does my husband, and I haven’t found this to be the case. The most successful women I know are, interestingly, generally the most happily married.

I think it’s less to do with the men than it is to do with us. Men aren’t a monolith Some men are misogynistic arses and some aren’t. Some are selfish or lazy or stupid…you get the drift. Picking the right one, setting the right boundaries and creating the relationship you want requires a level of self awareness, intelligence, confidence, and planning that a lot of women (people in general) do not have. The women who are hugely successful in their careers tend to have these qualities and apply them generally.

So, someone like your relative’s partner wouldn’t even have been in the running. This is a POS who she should have dumped: He accused her of cheating whenever was abroad working. He told people that SHE was punching and he could do better, he insisted on knowing her body count, then called her single friend names when she had a one night stand, but said it was different for men.

Also, financial independence isn’t a personality trait. It’s possible that your relative simply isn’t a great person to be in a relationship with. Similarly, you seem to have a high level of internalised misogyny: ‘bleached blonde fake hair, lip filler, fake nails, fake tan etc’ also aren’t characters traits. It’s interesting you think they tell us anything about this other woman, who could also be fiercely intelligent and driven. There are Supreme Court Justices who paid their way through school by being Playboy Bunnies.

And my ex husband was the complete opposite, so yes, not all men are the same!

Pretty much this. ^ Men want women to pay their way, and have a career, and be successful at their job - but not better than he is at his job or anything else.

One bloke I knew vaguely (from the pub - late 1990s,) had a game of pool in the pub with my friend who was good at it. She beat him. He flew into a rage and hurled a glass at her head. She ducked and ran (so did I,) and he caught her and punched her in the back and knocked her to the ground. 'Fucking slag, who do you think you are, fucking cunt!' He went crazy.

A couple of his mates pulled him off her and said 'fucking hell Steve, what ya doing?! Get off her, she only beat you at pool!' He was INCENSED that a woman had beaten him at something in front of his mates! (They were all mid 20s, we were late teens.) He went crazy when all his mates cheered, and laughed, and said 'you got beat by a girl!' They set him off, and he attacked HER. I pity the woman who ended up with him!

But yeah, as has been said, some men want women to be 'equal' when it suits them. They want women to work, and pay at least half of everything, but they also want women to do all the domestic chores, cooking, housework, shopping, childcare etc, whilst still looking fabulous. Not too good though, as they don't want other men gawping at you. And don't wear too much make up. And he wants sex on tap too. Then some point in the future he will cheat on you, and it will be your fault.

Honestly, some men are such twats.

I've definitely seen "I couldn't respect a man who doesn't earn more than I do" expressed on mumsnet a number of times.

As well as "I want a man who's self sufficient, has friends and hobbies etc" and then being outraged when that man is, well, self-sufficient and spends time with his friends and hobbies rather than her.

People may say they want certain qualities in their partner but when faced with the reality of it change their mind. It sucks but that's life. Humans are imperfect and sometimes you only find out what you can't live with once you've lived with it for a while.

I'm not really sure why the NAMALT have to pipe up here. I've had cats all my life. They were all completely different personalities. When I see cat hating threads I don't jump in and say 'My cat doesn't do that' and feel the need to defend her. Some cats are arseholes. Some of mine were, but not all. Me wading in with a story of a cat (or three) who doesn't kill wildlife and shit in neighbours' gardens doesn't mean that other cats don't.

I'm the only constant in the cat ownership - it's not my fault if one is a prolific hunter or one is smart enough to open the back door. Blaming the OP's relative as if she is the problem and the common denominator is wild.

There's obviously enough insecure, indecisive, entitled men around to make it a point of discussion. It's not a flex to say 'Not my Nigel'.

I think as women we need to decenter men. Focus on what you want and making yourself the best version of you, you can and stop worrying about what they say they want. Because even if you contort yourself into a pretzel it won't in 80% of cases work. Be you and try to find someone who loves and accepts that. Of course, you have to be okay with being single if you can't find someone.

I hope your friend moves on to a better bf!

I think your cousin needs to find an equal if she wants a man who genuinely thinks of her as an equal.
I know a woman very much like your cousin, super successful 6 figure earner from her 20s. The only way it worked was when she eventually married an exec at another company in the same industry. She secretly never respected very successful in other ways but ultimately lower earners than her, and liked to remind them constantly that no matter what award or promotion or success they had it was nothing because she earned more money. To be honest she’s a total PITA.
The exec husband was her perfect match in so many ways. He understood how important her career was and respected her achievements (which incidentally weren’t anywhere near his own…), and when the decision came up of what to do when kids came along money was no object so she could give up work and he could easily support them, or vice versa, or she could keep working and they could easily afford a nanny and cleaners etc. They also had amazing company benefits and were both able to take a year sabbatical. Ultimately it threw her into a massive existential crisis because she struggled to align the “career driven woman” with the woman who when push came to shove actually just wanted to stay at home with her child. She couldn’t blame her husband though. He offered her everything she wanted, even if she didn’t know what that was.

The clue is in the second sentence of the OP:

”I’m wondering if this is typical.”

Presumably OP is seeking a wide range of opinions, not just those of misandrists.

Sure, many of them don't want a gold digger, but that doesn't mean they're attracted to a stellar career as such. It's about minimising loss to themselves, not being impressed and turned on by a woman's professional success. Obviously not always, power couples are a thing, but generally overall they're not as invested in what a woman does for a living as women are (again, of course, generalising).