Lucy Letby - programme on ITV now

[Viviennemary]

I think this must be a new programme and not a repeat. Experts are being wheeled out to try and say Letby is innocent. I'm not convinced at all. None of them were even at the trial or worked with Letby. It's all theories and opinions..

I didn’t make this one 😂

@Firefly1987
You love to participate in every single one of them so I don't know why you're complaining, always the same stupid comments too about people loving baby killers and cheerleading for a serial killer, you've managed to bring Michael Jackson into a few of them too 😂😂

No I'm just surprised you found the time. Thanks tho-this one has felt like a bit of a gang up so maybe the other one is more balanced. You poll is not far off 50/50 for guilt after all.

The poll on the other thread is 40/60. I think it's fair enough that people have different opinions. I think she is guilty. But if there is doubt further investigation is needed. Other baby deaths at other hospitals she worked at are now being investigated. I think that's quite significant.

So do you. And yes I brought him up because the responses are so very different when it's a man and it's an (alleged) crime of that nature. Not that you can get worse than killing premature babies, but apparently it's fine to say someone is not guilty of that! It's utterly bizarre. This site is very "women can do no wrong so it must be the evil male consultants who set her up" so I shouldn't be surprised.

I don't love participating I just can't sit back and watch the utter madness that is defending her.

I’m on doctor mandated bed rest atm so I had time and you’re totally welcome.

It’s 60:40. That’s a clear majority and a massive shift in mumsnet opinion this year if it continues. I think you’ll find that it’s a more active thread than this one and that the comments are predominantly from people who have doubts, because (frankly) it’s no longer rational to insist one has zero doubts. It is rational to advocate for a review in the circumstances. I still have not had a reasonable answer as to why anyone rational would argue against a review.

Why are you taking this all so personally by the way? You don’t agree with us. That’s okay. You haven’t explained why. or make a single point that hasn’t been disproven, so it’s a bit baffling, but it’s still okay!

Definitely but I think some on here expected it to be much higher than that for not guilty. There are still a huge proportion who think she's guilty they just don't waste time arguing about it because she's where she belongs and that's not going to change.

Oh it's hugely significant! But they will dismiss the other hospital incidents, they will be ready to criticise the police because they can't blame the consultants/poor unit if it's incidents that happened at Liverpool. Like honestly I'm convinced that what we know so far is just the tip of the iceberg with her.

Yes. I'm right here, dismissing the incidents at the other hospital. Because:

Nobody saw anything amiss

Nobody had any problems with Lucy Letby

On her first placement there, it would have been virtually impossible for her to be unobserved with a child

On her second placement there, there's no record of what shifts she worked

That's all in the evidence given at Thirlwall from Liverpool Women's Hospital.

So how are they going to charge her with anything?

It wasn't 60/40 last time I looked, in any case I reckon you're still pretty disappointed in that poll result!

I don't think I'm taking it personally? I just can't imagine putting those parents through another trial or all this speculation. Obviously you'd think the same if you were convinced she was guilty. It's just needless trauma for the parents, they already know the truth in my opinion. I couldn't be more thrilled if it turned out she wasn't guilty, just can't ever see that happening.

It's been 60:40 for hours. That's with the 60 in favour of reviewing the conviction. Did you read it the wrong way around? Why would @Kittybythelighthouse be disappointed with that?

”Not that you can get worse than killing premature babies, but apparently it's fine to say someone is not guilty of that! It's utterly bizarre.”

What is utterly bizarre is making an ‘argument from assertion’ (ipse dixit): Treating an allegation as true simply because it’s been stated, but not being able to support it with evidence and doing so as if it justifies keeping an innocent person (of any sex) locked up for life.

You actually rack up quite a few logical fallacies. Here’s some more:

Proof by assertion: Repeating or asserting an allegation until it is accepted as true

Presumption of guilt: Assuming someone is guilty because they have been accused, rather than on the basis of evidence.

Circular reasoning (petitio principii): Where the allegation itself is used as evidence for its own truth - e.g., “She must have done it because he was accused, and she wouldn’t be accused if she hadn’t done it.”

In legal philosophy, this is sometimes criticised as reversing the burden of proof, treating the accused as having to prove innocence, rather than the accuser having to prove guilt.

God, I hope you never serve on a jury.

Those of us who actually care about the rigour of our justice system will keep talking about this though. You are welcome to keep sulking in the comments but never making any substantive points 🤷‍♀️

It’s been 60:40 since it started! It’s never been 50:50.

60:40 is huge actually. I’m really pleasantly surprised by that. It would not have been 60:40 even 6 months ago.

”Obviously you'd think the same if you were convinced she was guilty.”

Sure, but I wouldn’t think that if there was this level of doubt from such credible sources and I can’t for the life of me understand anyone doubling down on this.

The parents were dragged through unnecessary trauma by a cackhanded investigation and prosecution that should never have happened. I’m sorry they’ve suffered, but we cannot leave a potentially innocent woman in prison to spare anyone’s feelings. In addition, I give the parents enough credit to think that they deserve the truth, not a sacrificial lamb, and that at least some of them want the truth, regardless of what it is.

Who wants to believe their baby was murdered anyway if there’s a chance they weren’t?

Because your lot make it sound like it's something like 90/10 in her favour with almost everyone questioning it now. 40% still think she's guilty, that's a pretty large proportion. Even I'm surprised at that. Pleasantly surprised. Be interesting to see if it changes again after the Panorama doc.

”Definitely but I think some on here expected it to be much higher than that for not guilty.”

Based on what? You just wanted me to be disappointed for some reason and hallucinated that I would be, but mea culpa - I am not. 60:40 is an extremely healthy result.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to be up early in the morning. I'd be interested in your thoughts after the doc though-genuinely! Good night.

Maybe stop mind reading and you might get somewhere?

About 10 months ish ago someone did a poll and it was very much a guilty majority. Opinion is on the side of a review, again because that’s the sane and measured response to what is now known, but keep telling yourself whatever you want to believe.

Night!

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cj0y9673rjno

Sounds like this is what's coming up in the documentary.

It was the tip of the ice berg for Dr Shipman. An infamous massmurderer who operated in plain sight choosing vulnerable victims.

If I remember correctly, there was solid medical evidence, agreed upon by the experts reviewing it, in the Shipman case. This is not the case for Letby.

I'll say again, I do not know if Letby is guilty, members of the public have niether the access to the evidence or the medical experience to determine guilt or innocence, I do know the evidence she wa convicted on does not stand up to scrutiny by people who do have the experience to review it, and therefore the convinction is unsafe.

I don't want to live within a system where someone can be guilty and sentenced to life because they are a bit odd or "someone accused them so it must be true," or any of the reasons people are maintaining their confidence in the verdict, and I defininately do not want my daughter's living within a system like that.

To add, I would rather see a guilty person go free than an innocent person be convicted, especially when the sentence is a whole life tariff.

At the end of the day, Letby is never going to go into nursing again. If she is released, she will live under constant scrutiny and suspicion. That is horrific enough if she is innocent, but the idea of an innocent spending the rest of their life locked up is not something I can ever be comfortable with.

So is the Panorama programme going to be for or against Letby. This programme was 100% for. Hardly non biased reporting.

”I don't want to live within a system where someone can be guilty and sentenced to life because they are a bit odd or "someone accused them so it must be true," or any of the reasons people are maintaining their confidence in the verdict, and I definitely do not want my daughter's living within a system like that.”

This is exactly how I feel about it.

The expert panel report has multiple errors. Is there any reason to believe that the summary is completely accurate in this case?

The summary of the report, likely typed by an assistant, has a small error. We have no reason tho think that the actual reports have any errors and every reason to think they don’t, based on the calibre and reputation of the experts who compiled them.