Should men be allowed on post-natal wards?

[Kibble19]

This is off the back of another thread from a woman who is very concerned about the presence of unknown men on the post-natal ward at hospital.

I had my child during the pandemic so have no experience of normal practices in post-natal wards, and I appreciate they may vary from Trust to Trust.

When I had my baby, I was on the post-natal ward for several days (PPH, sepsis pathway joy). There were three visiting times each day, one hour each. Partners had to call the ward the day before to book their slot the next day, for social distancing purposes. I had no choice but to just manage on my own, as did the other women there.

Should we have a system like that (minus the need to book your visit) instead of the very wide open hours that many hospitals seem to have? Specific hours for visiting (with all visitors gone by, say, 7pm) only? No men or family members overnight?

1 in 4 women in England & Wales has suffered domestic abuse, so there must be many women who are anxious about the presence of men when they’ve had their baby.

Yes it’s up to the wards but the whole point of this thread is asking if it should be allowed. I’m shocked that any hospitals allow men to sleep in postnatal wards next to other women and babies. Visitors don’t need to be in a postnatal ward overnight. Patients come first.

God it’s REALLY hard for some people to give women basic respect isn’t it.

Who do you think sexual predators and Bad Men are BTW? Boogie men? Men who don’t have babies with people?

I think, women who want their partners to stay overnight should be put together in the same wards/ same wing. Women who don’t - in a separate wards- wing. So you basically, fill the form prior giving birth and state your preference. This way it would be fair on everyone.

So men who work certain shifts should be able to pop in at 2am to not be excluded? They should be on paternity leave

You think women who needs to listen for their babies should wear earplugs on a postnatal ward?

Im not sure headphones or earplugs would do much for the women too scared or nervous to sleep with strange men near them. Why should women have to put up with “personal discomfort” in a place that’s supposed to be caring for them?

I wholeheartedly agree- exept for visiting hours. Happy to see extended visiting hours for dad's like extra time in the morning... but it should not be 24/7.

... and here is my story:
When I had DC2, I had a long and difficult labour with a forceps delivery at the end.
I was wheeled onto the ward at something like 5am in the morning.
The room had 6 beds only one was occupied with curtains drawn. I was placed next to the bed but midwife didn't draw the curtains for me.

Occupied bed had a couple who were talking non stop. He got up several times holding his newborn walking around the room. I felt very exposed and vulnerable.

I did call for the midwives and they did draw the curtains on my bed eventually but said couldn't do anything about the couple. I didn't feel comfortable getting up, I couldn't sleep because they were talking and the midwives seemed indifferent to it.... that was 15 years ago.

My DH stayed with me 24/7. Wouldn't have wanted it any other way especially after having an emergency c section.

Not sure of what that term means to be honest. I’ve seen it used a lot on MN but thought it was more for when people post a dilemma purporting to be one party in the story, but they’re actually the other party.

What this thread has demonstrated is how badly women are served by the NHS. Because a lot of this - most of it, really - comes done to lack of staffing. And individual rooms would be no better without enough staff because women get forgotten about and overlooked.

It is a totally shameful state of affairs that has been completely normalised.

I wonder if the response would be very different on properly staffed post-natal wards.

I was in hospital for a week after my first DC was born (thanks preeclampsia!) and the woman in the bed next to me had her husband staying overnight. They were both just SO LOUD - talking and arguing all the time. He chose all her meals and ate them. He even once complained there were no sausages in the beans. I have no idea what she was eating as I had my curtain pulled over most of the time. At night time he SNORED so loudly nobody could get to sleep. It was horrendous. We definitely need more present care after birth and/or if men are staying over they should receive clear instructions on behaviour and expectations on the ward.

The issue is how do you balance the need for privacy and safety with the need some mothers have to have their partner with them. If there was adequate (at least)support at night , then it would be different. OH couldn’t stay at night and while I did manage it was hell. We actually ended up cosleeping in my hospital bed because I couldn’t move properly. The nurses turned a blind eye because they knew it was practical. One night my nipples were bleeding and DD was screaming her little head off because she’d only be quiet when breastfeeding but I just couldn’t do it anymore. Had to waddle down and beg for a bottle until OH could come at 9 am and bring some. DD had to be wheeled down for antibiotics, one of them during the night. I was expected to do it, despite still being in considerable amounts of pain.

As for quiet and peaceful, it was anything but. One lady loudly snored all night (must’ve been knackered or still under the influence of anaesthesia) while her baby cried all night from hunger.He didn’t get fed until the morning when dad came with bottles and formula and stuff.No one came to check on them, even though me and another mum pressed the call button. The mum with the takeaways. The mum who spent the whole time facetiming/calling her friends/family. The unsettled babies (mine was one of them). No judgement on any of these mums, they did what they had to do to get through it . With or without men, maternity wards are loud , noisy, annoying as fuck places because they involve other people. I don’t know why some women push the peaceful bliss myth. After 3 nights I was absolutely murderous and desperately needed to go home.

How are they unknown if they have to book?

They are unknown to you which nobody cares about. Do you expect to be provided with their name and address?

On the children's ward, the child can have a parent with them at all times. A newborn baby cannot be left alone without a caregiver, and is a patient that in an adjacent ward would be entitled to a parent accompanying them. The mother is also a patient, who in any other ward would be expected to rest and recuperate (with a higher nurse to patient ratio). Instead, half the patients are expected to provide intensive care for the other half of patients, with little to no "care" from HCPs for their own wellbeing. Considering the mothers are likely to be quite poorly, recovering from various surgeries, significant blood loss, mental health problems, exhaustion and sleep deprivation, plus other significant issues, it is essential that fathers/partners are expected to care for their newborns so the mothers get a chance to recover.

I've had 2 sections, and one a significant pph. Once off high dependency, care was nonexistent. I wasn't given painkillers, and was told off for flooding down my legs when first made to stand as I made a mess on the floor, colostrum I'd expressed was locked away and my DH had to spend 10 minutes hunting up and down bays to find the midwife with the key (I couldn't walk), I was never provided with water or food, and I could go on. The abuse of women on postnatal wards is horrific, and at least if partners are allowed to stay, there is a chance someone will be looking out for the health and wellbeing of both mother and baby.

Just out of interest (as it seems to have changed massively since mine was born 25 yrs ago), what would happen if there was a man there overnight who was staring at a new mum trying to get baby to latch on, making comments, and the new mum complained and said she feels unsafe - any midwives here to answer this? Am just curious what a hospitals response would be to this point? Would it be different if it were a husband there berating or arguing with his hew mum partner and causing disruption?

I realise that may be the minority but in my mind they should be asking the husband - or other partner - to leave at either of those points and getting security involved if necessary.

The issue is how do you balance the need for privacy and safety with the need some mothers have to have their partner with them.

Nobody needs a partners with them. They need better support through the night - which should be addressed through staffing not through letting unvetted visitors sleep next to vulnerable women and babies.

Your experience sounds awful and I can relate - I also had a horrific first night. But that could have been better addressed with professional support, as in someone who knew how to help rather than your DH who I’m presuming isn’t a MW? Also imagine that with double the amount of adults snoring, talking, on their phones etc!

the lack of support is woeful isn’t it - and I personally don’t believe it’s lack of staff. When I had my kids there seemed to be plenty of staff chatting in the staff room while women pressed their call buttons. There’s a huge healthcare gap for women and I personally believe that’s down to the culture of women not being seen to be important - a position that sadly seems to have carried through into the healthcare system

In both cases IME, pretty much nothing. Maternity "care" is an utter disgrace. And to the PP who disputed the patriarchy comment, yes, most midwives are women but most of the management at the level where financial and staffing decisions are made are men, and they don't appear to think the health needs of new mothers and babies are important.

I desperately wanted my partner with me after my c-section. It had been an emergency section. I was in shock, and couldn’t stop shaking, and was left in a room with a baby that I couldn’t reach or care for.

When I had my babies I did my showers when DH/others visited so they could stay with the baby. There’s really no need to have 24/7 visitors. Then again I’d advocate for 70s style maternity wards with nurseries babies can be taken to if the mother wants it, but that’s just me!

When I was in a postnatal ward after a complications at 27 weeks with my DC2, there was a woman who had a C-section absolutely begging for something better than paracetamol to take home - she was told no because “Imagine if you wanted more and you couldn’t have any because you can’t get them over the counter”. I was horrified and was very vocal about it as was the poor woman (who went home painkiller free!). The sad things is there are solutions and innovation for pain both in labour and postnatally and Trusts aren’t procuring it. Women are expected to get on with it. It’s disgraceful. On top of the maternity reviews, it shows giving birth in hospitals in this country dangerous.

A MNer posted something similar to this a couple of years ago as it was happening to her.

she complained and was told they can’t kick him out and that they’d only get abuse, so they just shut the curtain more.

Not to mention women can be misogynists. And as much as the “NHS are angels” narrative has been peddled in the last few years HCPs can be absolutely nasty. They also deal with women day in and day out, and I think some forget that the patients are there for the first time, or one of the few times in their life.

Absolutely!

We don’t need to have random men on the ward, we need to have enough care and support from the professional care givers to account for the care of both the babies and the women who birthed them. Partners should be able to visit during visiting hours and accompany their partner to the ward to settle them in immediately after birth and say goodnight. They should not be sleeping on the ward, hanging around the ward, using the toilets and showers on the ward, eating the food designated for the post-partum women.

There aren't enough staff for partners not to be there. Loved having a pandemic baby and I literally couldn't move my arms due to anesthesia and they told my partner to go away, leaving me with a newborn. I had to beg them to open a bottle of water for me and pass my glasses so I could see.

@Kibble19100% men should be allowed. As a woman I'm getting sick of this narrative that all men are likely to be dangerous.

Until they can get more staff on the wards to help then yes I think the men should be allowed to stay with their partners. I couldn't have managed without my husband after both of my EMCS. I find it ridiculous that women are expected to go through a traumatic birth and then are expected to look after their baby alone over night when they can't even stand up (which is what happened to me first time around). Second time the midwives weren't as busy and helped me overnight by taking my baby and allowing me to sleep. I think that should be standard practice.

I agree that men should not be on post natal wards over night. The whole argument actually pisses me off with the its his baby too wah wah wah.

People forget, a ward is for someone recovering. A patient. A woman has either just gone through a major surgery or a massive body event with vaginal birth and likely has injuries and exhaustion who is then confined to that ward to get in a minimal amount of recovery before being sent home. Its not for healthy people whose partners have just birthed their child to linger around vulnerable women in pain to flex that they have a new prodigy.

New father's can see the baby immediately after birth and again the next day even if the baby is born in the early hours. They dont have the same hormones that women do. The same injuries. The same anything. They are perfectly capable of bonding the next day as well.

Totally agree. I don’t understand the binding argument. Your kid lives with you for 18 years, there’s plenty of time.

but you’ve hit the nail on the head - it’s like women aren’t seen as patients. In every aspect of postnatal care.