Air India crash fuel switches turned off

[limetrees32]

I've not found a thread on this , although it's taken me so long to search out the knowledgeable posters
on the Washington crash that there probably is one now.
But @notimagain what do you think ?

Only relatives who know how each of the pilots speak would be able to recognise who the speaker was in the recording.

Ok, reveal on this stab(ilizer) trim story that has popped up.

Most importantly it's not about short circuits, crossed wires, AI, false signals or computers.

It's a Human Factors query and has been brought into the debate by some very keen on the cause of the accident being an action slip.

The switches to isolate the stab trim are near the fuel cutoff switches but are a different shape and are* *guarded.

Some of the action slip proponents think the crew had a recurrance of the stab trim msg during takeoff on the accident flight, decided to cut the system off and shut off fuel by mistake.

The prelim report made no mention of any trim problems either in the precis of cockpit conversation or elsewhere in reference to that flight - the data recorder would have registered a trim system malfunction.

As a result it's not a theory that is getting much traction, certainly not at the moment.

Yep, first instance close colleagues get roped in to listen (know people who have done it, it's horrid).

I think given the circumstances family only get used as a last resort.

Until the final report for good reasons the info is usually kept tightly under wraps..so either the WSJ is making things up or someone has blabbed, and if they have that doesn't help the investigation one bit.

It would make sense that colleagues are first. I can understand how that would be traumatic for all concerned.

Here's a link to the WSJ article that bypasses the paywall.

New Details in Air India Crash Probe Shift Focus to Senior Pilot - Black-box recording and report details indicate the flight’s captain switched off fuel flow to engines

It doesn't mention a source for the voice attribution or anything about the stabilizer controls being manipulated.

Edited to add that I don't think the WSJ is just making up the voice attribution. They're a large, well funded newspaper with a very good reputation for journalist integrity, not the Daily Fail.

Another Cut & Paste from FinancialExpress. The interim report on the AI crash does not seem to mention this ANA issue having taken place?

‘It happened in 2019, too’
Schiavo exclusively told Financial Express that this is not the first time fuel switch transitioned from “Run” to “Cutoff” on its own. It happened five years ago, too.

“There was an ANA flight in 2019 in which the 787 aircraft did this itself, while the flight was on final approach. No pilot input cutting off the fuel whatsoever,” Schiavo told Financial Express.

But how did it happen?

She said that a glitch in Boeing 787 software led to the transition in fuel switch.
“The investigation revealed the plane software made the 787 think it was on the ground and the Thrust Control Malfunction Accommodation System cut the fuel to the engines,” she told FinancialExpress.com, before adding, “The pilots never touched the fuel cutoff.”

All Nippon Airways (ANA) flight, which took-off from Tokyo to Osaka with 109 passengers and 9 crew members, suffered a dual engine failure. Both engines flamed out immediately after the pilot deployed the thrust reversers for landing. The aircraft, which was also a Boeing 787 Dreamliner, was towed away from the runway by the authorities, and no injuries were reported.

That's all fine and good but regardless of how well the WSJ is regarded there are.protocols covering this (usually via ICAO) which means the info should be protected..

TBH the Indian authorities might well be inclinded to tell the NTSB boss and other reps from the US to butt out if they can't keep their mouths shut..(they won't ..but)

It's not helpful.

There starts to be a credibility.problem with that piece the moment you realise it conflates final approach with after landing..

Anynow I've seen an explanation of an event that sounds vaguely like that from.someone at Boeing, I'll see I can find the info.again..but it's fundamental to understand that ANA event happened on the ground..

In the mean time I sense you're still determined to blame computers, Boeing, or false signals but you've never explained how a false signal can cause two completely independent systems to shut down a second apart rather than simultaneously.

According to the (very expert) Boeing source the ANA double shutdown on the ground in 2019 was a consequence of the way the crew handled selection of reverse thrust after landing.

Yes seconds apart rather than simultaneously is crucial. After all the flight from take off lasted under one minute.

To ask another question. Obviously the engines are switched on during the taxy run. On turning, which is complicated and getting ready to go to lift off, could these extra minutes, at most 5 - being generous, be used to switch? Not blaming anyone, no speculation. Just wondering about that.

@notimagain is there anything in the alleged likelihood of whoever is hands on piloting the plane likely to be too preoccupied to flip both switches seconds apart?

A user called Andrew Tilling who mentions that he is a 787 pilot had an Engine shutdown. His last line is worth reading. This is from the Telegraph.

Not quite sure what you mean by "used to switch"

So take off includes the run, (I used to garden for an air pilot he explained take off and landing procedures) that's a nervous time as is also landing. He said take off is more problematic because the plane is full of fuel. Nothing should go wrong in take off. And pilots double check everything.

To switch on to off.

Manoeuvre on to off is better. Has to be done manually.

I don't believe the plane would be able to take off if the fuel switches had been moved to cut off before take off.

The pilot flying could, I guess, maybe, manage it (possibly at the loss of a bit of flying accuracy) but you'd expect the pilot monitoring, who is largely eyes in just after liftoff watching the rate of climb and then waiting for the gear up call, to spot the hands moving straight away...

It probably was someone from the NTSB who leaked it. The Telegraph identifies the WSJ's source as American, and the only Americans who would have heard the voice recordings would be the NTSB, or less likely, someone from Boeing who was involved in the investigation.

www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/07/17/air-india-captain-cut-off-fuel-to-engines/

It was not previously clear who said what. However, sources in the US who have reviewed the cockpit voice recordings told the Wall Street Journal that it was the captain who was questioned about why he cut off fuel to engines.

Ah, no, the moment you turn them off the engine(s) start running down towards a complete stop...

So throttle forward few seconds going down the runway to immediate lift, and then the off flip for the engines? Trying to get a timeline within the seconds from take off to crash - under a minute.

Thank you, given all we know today, given balance of probabilities, does answer to all this likely almost speak for itself, then? We have to of course wait for full report but if deliberate or involuntary action by one of 2 in cockpit it may never be 100 per cent possible to conclude who responsible?

That's interesting, I spent many years on that aircraft type and hadn't heard of that incident.

That said that example of a single failure still doesn't really provide compelling evidence that similar happened on Air India..

If you believe the Indian AAIB prelim you've got two, not one, engines running down within about a second of each other but not at exactly the same instant, at probably the stage of flight where you are least able to recover the situation.

In addition data recorder showing the switches moved (and probably other data streams showing valve movement)...

Now Occam's razor is a dangerous tool to employ, especially since we don't yet have the full story, but OTOH there are dangers in having too open a mind (cf. Carl Sagan).

Correct..

Times from the Indian AAIB preliminary:

Aircraft started the take-off roll at 08:07:37 UTC

Lifted off (weight off wheels) at 08:08:39 UTC

Max airspeed reported at 08:08:42

" immediately thereafter the Engine 1 and Engine 2 fuel cutoff switches transitioned from RUN to CUTOFF position one after another with a time gap of 01 sec.."

^Direct quote from.the report but I've added the emphasis.

Mayday call made at 08:09:05 UTC, aircraft crashed very very shortly afterwards.