Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Air India crash fuel switches turned off

323 replies

limetrees32 · 12/07/2025 07:37

I've not found a thread on this , although it's taken me so long to search out the knowledgeable posters
on the Washington crash that there probably is one now.
But @notimagain what do you think ?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
notimagain · 13/07/2025 21:25

@dynamiccactus

If the 787 RAT follows the standard Boeing set up for their big twins there is a manual deploy option for the pilots to use, plus it will be signalled to deploy automatically for various electrical failures and/or certain hydraulic failures and/or double engine run down.

notimagain · 13/07/2025 21:25

Another dupe post, apologies

MissConductUS · 14/07/2025 00:50

putitovertherefornow · 12/07/2025 11:45

You are questioning the opinion of an extremely experienced former airline pilot who talks considerable sense on all aviation matters that crop up on MN, including flightradar threads, and I especially look out for @notimagain and their knowledgeable posts.

He's also been on the two plus year Ukraine war threads, and as a former RAF pilot, the resident expert there on all things related to military aviation.

Bowies · 14/07/2025 01:31

I don’t think we can draw any conclusions yet about the cause.

From the release of the recording, I didn’t read the conversation as evidence of deliberate or even accidental action by either pilot.

It’s extremely worrying.

TheAutumnCrow · 14/07/2025 01:37

notimagain · 13/07/2025 14:11

Worth bearing in mind in the context of this bit of the discussion that there are quite prescriptive rules about who does what and when.

For example from before, during and for a few seconds after the "rotate" call you'd expect the pilot flying to have both hands on the yoke (effectively the steering wheel), as well as eyes very much front'ish.

The pilot monitoring tends to be more heads in, hands down, watching for any problems/failures and waiting, for example, to action items such as the "gear up" call.

I’m picturing it. The First Officer pilot would have had his hands full, and the Captain pilot would have likely had his hands relatively free, as it were?

notimagain · 14/07/2025 06:10

Bowies · 14/07/2025 01:31

I don’t think we can draw any conclusions yet about the cause.

From the release of the recording, I didn’t read the conversation as evidence of deliberate or even accidental action by either pilot.

It’s extremely worrying.

Bear on mind no one has released any recording of what was said, all we have is a India AAIB precis of a short discussion.

What they have chosen.to.convey may be significant.

notimagain · 14/07/2025 06:20

TheAutumnCrow · 14/07/2025 01:37

I’m picturing it. The First Officer pilot would have had his hands full, and the Captain pilot would have likely had his hands relatively free, as it were?

Correct.

TheAutumnCrow · 14/07/2025 09:04

notimagain · 14/07/2025 06:20

Correct.

Thanks, @notimagain.

There’s a narrative that seems be building out in media-land that relies on a lot of confirmation bias. (If you want to find something on a pilot, you will always find something if you go looking … ).

However the probable position of hands during take-off does seem to be significant.

But … we still don’t know the exact sequence, timings, words spoken, and by whom.

notimagain · 14/07/2025 09:24

@TheAutumnCrow

Funny you should mention confirmation bias because a lot of the narrative early on seemed to have been "must be yet another Boeing stuff up"...or "must be down to something Boeing have done". There's still a bit of that thinking around with some of the comments about switch location/design.

I get the impression it's hard to shift some sources and posters from even beginning to contemplate other possibilities..

Bowies · 14/07/2025 10:09

notimagain · 14/07/2025 06:10

Bear on mind no one has released any recording of what was said, all we have is a India AAIB precis of a short discussion.

What they have chosen.to.convey may be significant.

Yes “partial written release” or “snippet” would have been more accurate, but it is established what has and hasn’t been released; my PP is based on and a response to earlier discussions on this thread.

No conclusions can be drawn while an investigation is ongoing and only partial aspects have been revealed.

Air India would be motivated for people to continue to fly Air India, though I’m sure they do want to get to the source, they are a commercial enterprise.

SheilaFentiman · 14/07/2025 10:51

Air India would be motivated for people to continue to fly Air India, though I’m sure they do want to get to the source, they are a commercial enterprise.

Air India are not conducting the investigation, it is the air accident investigation board.

Snakebite61 · 14/07/2025 11:27

limetrees32 · 12/07/2025 08:31

Action slip has entered my vocabulary and I predict that I will be regularly using.

😂😂😂

notimagain · 14/07/2025 12:45

@Bowies

There's no "snippet" or "partial release" of the exact cockpit conversation...

Just for clarity and completeness what follows is exactly and in totality what is the AAIB interim has to say about any discussion:

"In the cockpit voice recording, one of the pilots is heard asking the other why he did cutoff. The other pilot responded that he did not do so"

That's it..that is all the info anyone outside the investigating team knows about what was said.

So if you see anything in this thread, or in the media ( including some of the popular youtube pilot channels) claiming, maybe even using quotation marks, along the lines of:

X said " this"..and then Y said "..that" you are reading fiction.

The lead agency for the investigation is the Indian AAIB (as it should be), there are experts and representatives from multiple nationalities attached to that team..Air India gets to watch and offer up evidence when asked.

HotCrossBunplease · 16/07/2025 00:12

Kellyklara · 12/07/2025 18:03

We don't. It's just takes a very long time to write out he/she, her/him for every sentence.

So i just guessed a gender.

He/she it doesnt really matter

Why on earth would you guess male on a predominantly female site?!

HotCrossBunplease · 16/07/2025 01:29

Something that people might find interesting: the hull of the aircraft will have been insured for about $200 million or so. However there are two different policies- one which covers terrorism, collateral damage in a war (like MH17) or deliberate pilot acts. The other one covers things like mechanical failure or unintentional pilot error. The two policies are underwritten by different groups of insurers. So the insurance world will be very, very keen to understand the cause of this accident as it not only determines who will be footing quite a chunky bill, it can also affect premium for future cover for all airlines.

As it can take a year or more for the final report, the two insurers often split the cost 50/50 so payment can be made to the airline or lessor straight away. They then re-allocate the monies between themselves at a later date when they have more certainty.

(Liability to the passengers’ and other victims’ families and property owners on the ground is not split in the same way, the insurer covering all that already knows they are on the hook regardless of the cause.)

CanadianJohn · 16/07/2025 01:56

HotCrossBunplease · 16/07/2025 00:12

Why on earth would you guess male on a predominantly female site?!

I rarely look at user names, but I did in this case, and immediately "read" "notimagain" as "not 'im again"

This doesn't necessarily mean the poster is male, of course.

SuratNuJaman · 16/07/2025 04:14

HotCrossBunplease · 16/07/2025 01:29

Something that people might find interesting: the hull of the aircraft will have been insured for about $200 million or so. However there are two different policies- one which covers terrorism, collateral damage in a war (like MH17) or deliberate pilot acts. The other one covers things like mechanical failure or unintentional pilot error. The two policies are underwritten by different groups of insurers. So the insurance world will be very, very keen to understand the cause of this accident as it not only determines who will be footing quite a chunky bill, it can also affect premium for future cover for all airlines.

As it can take a year or more for the final report, the two insurers often split the cost 50/50 so payment can be made to the airline or lessor straight away. They then re-allocate the monies between themselves at a later date when they have more certainty.

(Liability to the passengers’ and other victims’ families and property owners on the ground is not split in the same way, the insurer covering all that already knows they are on the hook regardless of the cause.)

Edited

Hello, You are knowledgeable in the field of Insurance.

What could be Boeing liable for if it is a mechanical fault?

What could Air India be liable for if it is Pilot caused?

And can a British/American national who was on the flight fight a case for compensation in their home country?

RainbowBagels · 16/07/2025 06:18

CanadianJohn · 16/07/2025 01:56

I rarely look at user names, but I did in this case, and immediately "read" "notimagain" as "not 'im again"

This doesn't necessarily mean the poster is male, of course.

Yes I read it like that too.

HotCrossBunplease · 16/07/2025 09:03

CanadianJohn · 16/07/2025 01:56

I rarely look at user names, but I did in this case, and immediately "read" "notimagain" as "not 'im again"

This doesn't necessarily mean the poster is male, of course.

Are you male John?

SheilaFentiman · 16/07/2025 09:12

notimagain hasn’t conmented about their gender because there’s absolutely no reason to do so, especially on a thread like this, which is about technical and human aspects of a catastrophic events, not about eg pregnancy or other sex-based experiences.

Any chance we could leave this side road?

HotCrossBunplease · 16/07/2025 09:16

SuratNuJaman · 16/07/2025 04:14

Hello, You are knowledgeable in the field of Insurance.

What could be Boeing liable for if it is a mechanical fault?

What could Air India be liable for if it is Pilot caused?

And can a British/American national who was on the flight fight a case for compensation in their home country?

Everyone on the flight can sue Air India in England and Wales regardless of where they live because the flight destination was England. That is prescribed by international aviation law (Montreal Convention).

They could also choose to claim in India or the jurisdiction where they have their principal and permanent residence provided that Air India also operates there or has a presence. No indication yet that any passengers were US resident but who knows.

The airline is liable to all passengers up to about USD 200k regardless of accident cause. Above that they can disclaim liability if they can prove they were not negligent, which they would not of course be able to do if it was a deliberate pilot act.

The amount of money a family can claim will depend on lots of variable factors such as age, number of dependants, salary etc and the quantification rules for fatal accident claims in the jurisdiction where the claim is brought. They also have the right to an immediate advance payment which has already been offered by AI excess of the statutory minimum.

It’s common for claimant lawyers to try to find a reason to sue a US-based manufacturer so they can get a jury trial and much higher compensation. Often they look not just at mainframe manufacturer but also sub-component manufacturers. A claimant in a claim v a manufacturer has to prove negligence though, unlike in a claim v an airline. This is much harder in the case of a deliberate pilot act but they could argue that the system was not sufficiently fail safe to prevent the deliberate act. See arguments against Boeing around 9/11 re Flight Deck doors not being robust enough to prevent forced entry. Personally I can’t see that working here but a lot of these claims are based on bluffing to force a settlement.

Also families of those who died on the ground or owners of property damaged on the ground will have claims against all involved under Indian law.

HotCrossBunplease · 16/07/2025 09:20

SheilaFentiman · 16/07/2025 09:12

notimagain hasn’t conmented about their gender because there’s absolutely no reason to do so, especially on a thread like this, which is about technical and human aspects of a catastrophic events, not about eg pregnancy or other sex-based experiences.

Any chance we could leave this side road?

As long as we are clear that nobody should ever assume pilots are male in this day and age, which is what appeared to have happened earlier in this thread despite us being on an overwhelmingly female site.

placemats · 16/07/2025 10:29

SheilaFentiman · 16/07/2025 09:12

notimagain hasn’t conmented about their gender because there’s absolutely no reason to do so, especially on a thread like this, which is about technical and human aspects of a catastrophic events, not about eg pregnancy or other sex-based experiences.

Any chance we could leave this side road?

Just as an aside, sorry, one of the best flights I've ever had was from Belfast to Manchester and the Captain was female. In the seat in front of me was a young pilot looking most striking in her uniform. The take off and landing was perfect.

Carry on now 💪

Kellyklara · 16/07/2025 12:41

HotCrossBunplease · 16/07/2025 00:12

Why on earth would you guess male on a predominantly female site?!

Because of the username.

"Notimagain".

Looks like a shortened version of

"Not him again"

Swipe left for the next trending thread