Has anyone else noticed that Mumsnet seems to be becoming more regressive on women’s rights?

[CurlewKate]

There are a lot of threads, on big issues and small, that seem to indicate a drift in that direction. Women shouldn’t be police officers. Marriage is wonderful. Changing your name on marriage is a good idea… And, most significantly, many conversational, this happened to me type pro life threads. Do we need to be even more vigilant, in the face of America’s lurch to the Right and the rise of Reform in this country?

There's been a notable rise in church-going too among younger people - in particular, high-church - where traditional values are still adhered to.

They also appear to be rather abstemious in terms of drinking and sex.

I think they've seen us live our lives and decided that that's not the path for them.

"Gen X and the Millennials are now well into our forties and thirties."

The earliest Gen X are now 60.

Gen X people are currently aged between 45 (or will be 45 this year) and 60.

Millennials are currently aged between 29 (or will be 29 this year) and 44

@OneAmberFinch That’s the sort of thing I find fascinating. I hear so many things described as ‘right wing’, ‘extreme right’, etc. when in fact they aren’t obviously those things at all.

This even extends to whole political movements. I’m convinced that the majority of the supposedly scary European Right—Meloni, Orban, Le Pen, Farage and so on—barely even qualifies as right-wing. Most of those movements are as or more socialist than the politics they want to replace.

I think it’s all a generational turning of the wheel, or slow revolution, where the new ideas will stand by reference only to themselves. We’re getting old and out-of-date and we don’t know what to think, so we mostly see the bits that scare us and say they’re right-wing – but really they’re not, instead they’re part of a new value system that works on its own logic and isn’t really for us at all.

We probably all had older relatives and wondered how they could be not-terrible people but say such embarrassing things about eg race. This is probably how it happens though. In twenty years’ time our grandkids will be rolling their eyes and hurriedly moving the conversation on when granny has a glass of wine and starts insisting that: “I must have my say, and contraception is A. Good. Thing.”

"SAHM is something that didn’t happen before the 1940s. Before that the women worked with their baby in a sling or the kids went off to their jobs."

I'm not too sure what country you're talking about but that really wasn't true in the UK.

Have a look at the Census from earlier years. Very many mothers stayed at home.

"the kids went off to their jobs"

Since 1880, the compulsory school leaving age has been 10. It then increased to 12 by 1899. It then increased to 14 in 1918 and 15 in 1947.

But even before then, many children were in school. For example, in 1871 my great great grandfather was aged 7 and he was shown as a scholar in the Census (along with one of his brothers). His mother stayed at home.

Don't think that this was a rich family. His father was a farm worker, as was his older brother. His 12 year old sister worked as a laundress.

I know lots of gen x people who got married under the age of 25. A lot met their spouses at uni and married a year or two afterwards.

I had my first child at thirty. I wasn’t the eldest mum, but most of my first time mum friends were up to five years younger. To have your first child after thirty wasn’t that common, and you would consider your biological clock was ticking (and fertility decreasing).

I don’t think valuing traditional ways is regressive. Marriage has certainly been wonderful for me, as has changing my name and being a mother. These are not things I will speak negatively about, absolutely not. I actually think society has become far more negative towards women who value and cherish these things- nobody is stopping a woman from staying single, keeping her own name or deciding not to have children, so why it bothers anybody that for some women these things are still their ultimate life goals I find stranger actually. I feel really happy and fulfilled.

As a general issue, a basic fact of life is that nobody is going to agree with you about everything. Being able to expect and tolerate disagreement is a sign of maturity, expecting everybody to think the same as you on every issue is doomed to failure. Completely unrealistic.

I don’t think valuing traditional ways is regressive. Marriage has certainly been wonderful for me, as has changing my name and being a mother. These are not things I will speak negatively about, absolutely not. I actually think society has become far more negative towards women who value and cherish these things- nobody is stopping a woman from staying single, keeping her own name or deciding not to have children, so why it bothers anybody that for some women these things are still their ultimate life goals I find stranger actually. All I experienced through school was liberal teachers pushing career, career, career, but I choose family every single time. I feel really happy and fulfilled. Society wants to destroy the family and make everybody dependent on the government, that much is obvious. They have failed with my family 😊

As a general issue, a basic fact of life is that nobody is going to agree with you about everything. Being able to expect and tolerate disagreement is a sign of maturity, expecting everybody to think the same as you on every issue is doomed to failure. Completely unrealistic.

I don’t think valuing traditional ways is regressive. Marriage has certainly been wonderful for me, as has changing my name and being a mother. These are not things I will speak negatively about, absolutely not. I actually think society has become far more negative towards women who value and cherish these things- nobody is stopping a woman from staying single, keeping her own name or deciding not to have children, so why it bothers anybody that for some women these things are still their ultimate life goals I find stranger actually. All I experienced through school was liberal teachers pushing career, career, career, but I choose family every single time. I feel really happy and fulfilled. Society wants to destroy the family and make everybody dependent on the government, that much is obvious. They have failed with my family 😊

As a general issue, a basic fact of life is that nobody is going to agree with you about everything. Being able to expect and tolerate disagreement is a sign of maturity, expecting everybody to think the same as you on every issue is doomed to failure. Completely unrealistic.

Quoting you: 'Making it difficult/impossible for a woman to access an abortion to save her life, or to save her from continuing carrying a dying baby is pretty controversial, surely?'

Vastly different to Farage suggesting reducing the abortion date to reflect viability. Why are you making things like this up? It's ok to not like Reform but to push lies like this is odd.

His exact quotes please... Or are you just repeating what you heard?

You quoted him yourself saying he wants the age to be lowered. I don’t understand you at all.

Its well known that Farage wants to come out of the ECHR, scrap the Human Rights Act and the Equality Act and he's done nothing but bang on about diversity and inclusion which women benefit from. You'll be asking me next to give you proof he's against immigration.

Primarily some variant of cycle awareness/NFP, perhaps with condoms during fertile periods, that sort of thing.

To a generation who all went on the pill/coil/shot aged 16 and didn't stop until they explicitly wanted a child, this seems like bizarre risky behaviour only explainable by far right American religious conservatives trying to sneakily encourage a baby boom.

To a generation which can order basal thermometers, Oura rings and ovulation test strips with the click of a button, it seems like a logical and reliable method that avoids various by-now well-known side effects of hormonal contraception and allows you to get to know your female body as it naturally is without contorting it into something controllable and convenient for men.

@Sskka said it perfectly with: "they’re part of a new value system that works on its own logic and isn’t really for us at all."

I’m not sure why using modern technology as contraception so long as it is as effective as the hormone type is regressive, is it?

@OutandAboutMum1821Nobody is saying that we cannot do those things. Of course we can. It’s important to remember that some things stem from the patriarchy, and make our decisions in that light. It is absolutely fine to make anti feminist decisions so long as we know we’re making them.

We must be as I can see how that’s you - but as a fellow Gen Xer that’s not me. Teen years and first real understanding of news during the early 90s recession - all the shops whited out on the way to the train station on my way home from school. Voted for the first time in 1997 and felt like we’d made a a positive change to our future. Gender-non-conforming (Britpop had a lot of androgyny, these were musicians influenced by Bowie) and scraped our way onto the property ladder. Told to expect a company would invest in us and that our degree would set us up for a rewarding career, only to find this wasn’t the case. A childhood without the internet, but unprepared for how addictive it was - and so enthusiastic early adopters who came to the risks early. Often cohabiting early because of rents rising but with a generation of men who seemed completely incapable of getting out of the pub and committing (and who had a shaky understanding of women’s biological clocks) meaning many people settled down late with a big mortgage and a career which women tried to cling to but ended up sacrificing on the altar of childcare

That much is evident...

Yes Farage wants it lowered to reflect viability, that doesn't mean he wants to and I quote: 'Making it difficult/impossible for a woman to access an abortion to save her life, or to save her from continuing carrying a dying baby is pretty controversial, surely?'

How are you not understanding that?

So well known that you can't provide evidence to suggest he wants to scrap maternity pay as you suggested.

Yes he wants to come out of the ECHR and what is so bad about that? Can we not reform and create our own laws.

If you are a woman who needs to rely on DEI to get hired I'd argue you probably aren't the best candidate for the job. I prefer equality of opportunity not outcome.

'You'll be asking me next to give you proof he's against immigration.' Well, no we all know he is against illegal immigration, hence his rise in popularity, what with the current crisis.

If the reduction in the age makes it more difficult or even impossible for a woman to access an abortion in the circumstances I outlined, then Farage does want to prevent such access.

Oh, and there are no DEI appointments in the UK. Unless you know different….

You support a more radical set of abortion laws than most of the British population then, I assume. It's fine but it doesn't make Farage "regressive" on his abortion POV of "keep everything the same but move the elective abortion time limit 2 weeks earlier".

I have no idea how you can possibly justify the statement that there are no DEI hires in the entire country...

This is about us all being in silos now, I think. Not that there are actually more socially conservative people now than there were twenty years ago. We had book clubs, or a WIs, or a ramblers groups, or whatever, where members actually expressed their differing beliefs.
People with different moral and political beliefs seem shocking because we don't meet eachother in day to day life any more.
I suspect there is also more self-censorship than there used to be. So there will be a variety of beliefs among the members of any group, but there will be a recognised set of correct, acceptable beliefs, and group members that don't share those beliefs will keep mum.

Marriage and motherhood, great. But why is changing your name so wonderful to you? Not trolling, interested.

BTW, as a Gen Zer I'll offer my views.

I don't think abortion should be allowed after 12 weeks. I believe strongly in a woman's right to choose before then. I would allow exceptions for rape, foetal severe deformity & danger to mother's life.

I am strongly sceptical of BOTH the Pill & NFP. I don't really think either are good options, & I am suspicious of creepy, surrogate -using Peter Thiel pushing it via an app. I think the idea of being natural is good but there's a reason it needs perfect following to be effective. Personally I would advise condoms & coil, & also avoiding PIV ideally until in a more stable situation..But realistically this is not going to work. For one thing, a greater focus on oral sex would be bad news due to Big Porn's violent idea of what tgat shoyld involve 😡

Luckily for me this is something I don't need to worry about as I only have relationships w women... I don't envy the worry over different options, it's so wrong that there are not better ones.

I strongly oppose surrogacy, prostitution, would like stricter controls on porn & am v GC. Largely thanks to MN!

Feminism does have some common aims. Otherwise it's meaningless. The right to education, vote & protection from rape including marital rape, for three.

I see what you mean about men in nurseries - should they be banned tho? I'm not sure myself...