What do you think the trans debate will look like in 10 years?

[Roxietrees]

Around 3 years ago I would have called myself a trans ally and fully supportive of trans rights. However over the last 6 months my opinion has changed and I have done more and more research and reading mainly into the impact of trans women on women’s rights and lesbian rights. I’m now firmly of the belief that trans activists are erasing women’s hard fought for rights and threatening the validity and even existence of lesbians. This fills me with rage and i don’t think I’m alone in this shift in opinion (as the recent Supreme Court ruling demonstrated). I read somewhere that there has been quite a large downturn in support for trans rights over the last year. Once again it seems men are in control and, what pisses me off the most is on the many occasions trans activists have assaulted women’s rights activists the police do fuck all about it. For fear of looking transphobic maybe? A year ago I’d have said that in 10 years society would be a fully accepting place for trans people. Now I don’t think so. There appears to be (thankfully) more and more backlash against trans ideology and I think we may be heading for a very different society to what I originally thought. What do you think the trans debate will look like in 10 years?

So this.

Gender is what used to be called 'likes and dislikes, personality traits'.

Absolutely! I’m one of three. Twin boys and me, a woman. - v close in age and all middle aged. We joke that one of the twin boys is called ‘the girl’ in ’the special one’ (cos I’m super quirky) and ‘the alpha’ cos he’s just really bossy and takes charge.

My point is I’m biologically female - my twin bros are biologically male. One is so sensitive he cries at the drop of a hat, one is so stoic and ‘cold’, and I’m just the eccentric quirky one who everyone lovingly laughs at for being a bit… odd.

im summarising three people in a few sentences but we are so much more than that. So called ‘feminine’ and ‘masculine’ traits don’t exist - o r they shouldn’t. It’s outdated and daft. Most people are a huge mix of all sorts anyway

Trans+ people have ideas about gender which I don't personally share, or necessarily even agree with! But our values are 'accept people who they are', not anything to do with what gender is or isn't. That's why last Friday I was dancing with a cis man wearing eyeliner and a crop top, a trans woman (and trust me, none of you could tell!), an NB person who honestly just looks like a cis woman, a trans woman who is choosing not to have surgery, and me! And despite our opposing views/experiences with gender, we all rub along fine! I'm in no danger, noone forces their opinions on me.

I wholeheartedly agree that clothes shouldn't have a gender and people should be able to dress how they please, but that's not reality. Gender is imposed on people. Little boys who like feminine things are made fun of and called sissies and that they look like girls. Men who enjoy wearing skirts and dresses are judged and harassed. Maybe that's where it all comes from. Maybe my trans friends would have been happy effeminate men in a different world. But it's not a different world, they are who they are, and I love them.

I lost my hair, soon to be tits, and put on a ton of weight due to chemo. Cis women have looked at me with pity and told me they're sorry. My gender fucky mates have told me I look great and helped me feel good about myself. I'll do the same for them. We're not sad.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5349437-to-ask-if-boys-can-wear-coloured-gingham-school-shorts?page=34

Have a look at this 34 page thread about a boy in blue shorts and tell me men and boys can wear what they like!

I’m sorry for your experience. Don’t use the term cis women though - it’s bullshit and offensive.

sounds like you danced with some whacky dress sense. That’s it! No more no less

It was the world you describe. It was there in the 80s. It’s not hard to find out about it. And believe me, the world was a lot more sexist and homophobic back then.

But no one was lying to kids and young people, telling them that they’re actually the opposite sex because of sexist stereotypes (which are of course the only way to identify as the opposite sex). The homophobia of the day didn’t translate into transing the gay away, sending people down a pathway of lifelong medicalisation.

But also - you’re not all as nice as you think you are. Your earlier post mentioned not caring where people pee. Totally dismissive of the fact that a great many women and girls do care, and for very good reason.

Yes but that’s the point isn’t? Little boys should be able to wear what the hell they like without having gender stereotypes forced on them ditto little girls

gender critical = critical of gender stereotypes being imposed

more power to gender non conforming boys & men. Break down those stereotypes by wearing dresses or everything in pink or whatever. I’ll support you wholeheartedly.

but they are still boys and men

Do you know what - I also rub along well with all the men I know! None of them have every raped me, or hit me. Or told me that they are more of a woman than I will ever be. Therefore all men are fine and inclusive and nonviolent!

Exactly!

we keep trans women out of women’s spaces not because they are trans but because they’re men

Goodness. I wouldn't want to be seen as mean like JKR. Much better to smile and nod as rapists are locked up with women, and girls uncomfortable with their changing bodies are convinced that what they really need is to have their healthy breasts amputated.

Don’t whatever you do start funding charities for abused women or girls!

That’s not how it is now, however much you protest.

Exactly. And young boys should have puberty blockers that will render them infertile forever. And irreversibly change their body development. Because a pre-pubertal child can certainly understand that decision!

I know! What a bitch!

She never has to work another day in her life and can disappear easily. But she didn’t - because she stands up for what’s right.

the woman is an absolute queen.

she’s put her head above the parapet when she could’ve just sat back and enjoyed her great wealth. She’s the definition of a strong, strong, amazing fearless woman!

I agree. It’s also depressing just how untouchably rich and unimpeachably professionally successful you need to be to put your head above that parapet without putting your livelihood, reputation abd safety st considerable risk.

I agree with what you say about people being able to dress how they please simply not being the reality we live in. It would be fantastic if it was but it just isn’t. Yes, women can pretty much wear what they want because masculinity is seen as ‘strong’ but boys and men would not get away with wearing make-up or a dress or going to get their nails done without getting at least some abuse along the way, because feminity is seen as ‘weak’. It’s a nice idea and I’m sure many people wish it could be the case but it ain’t happening anytime soon

This I think is most likely. Its already starting

Unlike many posters I do believe that some trans people “exist” eg. For whatever reason their body doesn’t match how they feel on the inside. For example that Louis Theroux documentary about 15 years ago about trans kids. This was before the wave of trans ideology and some of these kids were 6 or 7 and had been begging their parents to change sex, insisting they were the opposite sex since toddlerhood. One boy had even tried to chop his penis off with a knife. As a parent, if the only option to stop your child committing suicide is to allow them to change gender you’re going to let them do that. And I do believe that should be supported. However I believe these cases are the minority. This is not the case for many trans people who don’t “realise” they’re trans until much later. For example, I can’t remember his name but that 40 something man with a beard who’s started wearing a skirt and calling himself a lesbian, I find SO offensive! As a lesbian and a woman I feel it’s a title to be earned - through decades of experiencing the world as a female, the “casual” sexual assault 90% of women have experienced, the fear of walking home alone at night, being physically smaller and weaker than many people around you, being told you can’t do things because you’re a girl. And coming out as a lesbian in your teens - the homophobia, the abuse, the looks of mild disgust from friends & family, the trauma of being told by society that who you fundamentally are is wrong/disgusting/a joke. This guy just lives for 40 years as a straight white man then rocks up one day and claims he’s a lesbian woman and feels entitled to the same understanding of that journey. FUCK OFF!!

Lots more thoughts but this post will be too long!

lots of detransitioners I think and just a collective “how did we let things get so bad”. I think we’ll look back on this period of time in horror. Because it was well and truly madness to try and gaslight people into thinking Steve could become Samantha

@Roxietrees Do you know the word "autogynophile"? Might help you form thoughts about these men.

Anyone who threatens to kill themselves unless they get what they want is severely mentally unwell and needs help, not getting what they want. It doesn't stop being blackmail just because it has the magic trans wand wave over it.

In ten years time there will be an awful lot of detransitioners, lamenting the damage done to their bodies and the lies they were told.

It’s simply and factually untrue that “There have always been trans people, there have always been people who have had sex changes.” For starters, there was almost no elective surgery of any kind before antibiotics became available for public use in the very late 1940s. Before then, you avoided surgery (unless it was essential/an emergency), because infection rates could not be controlled afterwards and death rates from surgical procedures were very high. Modern surgery essentially began in the postwar period. Artificial human hormones derived from horse urine were similarly invented in the 1940s, but took until the 1960s to be mass-produced for widespread public medical uses. It wasn’t until the 1970s that “sex change” operations and crude hormone treatments started to be available — around the time that the words “transsexual” (and later “transgender”) came into common usage.

Before modern surgery, psychology, antibiotics and mass-produced hormones there simply were no “sex changes”. Cross-dressing or desiring to be the opposite sex was thought of as an effect of homosexuality (“inversion theory”), and the sociological use of “gender” to mean what used to be called “sex roles” simply didn’t exist — “gender” was a grammatical term, not a sociological one. Expressing wanting to be the opposite sex was pretty much always only articulated by women, especially same-sex attracted women, but also women who felt limited by the lack of freedom afforded their sex compared to men: that didn’t mean they actually wanted to be changed into men.

So, @AnyoneWhoHasAHeart, in what sense did “trans” people exist before the concept became widely available? How did “sex changes” exist when all you could do was put on different clothes?

Exactly, thank you. Society has pressed people in to boxes since time immemorial. Have you ever heard the phrase 'you do X like a girl', or 'that's for girls/boys'? My brother didn't like football, my dad forced him to play at age 8, he skipped around the pitch not even trying to get the ball. When he gets home he gets yelled at for being like a girl. A fairy, a sissy. On these boards we hear 'men so x' and 'women feel y'. And don't give the bollocks with 'what about the 80s/90s'. I went to school during section 28 and my mum lost friends to the AIDs crisis. Newspapers openly called people poofs and benders.

It is categorically undeniable that there are rigid expectations for men in society as a whole. It is therefore of no surprise to me that someone who is male and doesn't fit those expectations might think 'well men do/think/wear this, so I'm not a man.' Why is it their responsibility to break down those barriers and think differently than everyone else? Why should we expect them to have this sudden epiphany when people can't get over a boy in light blue gingham shorts?

Being where we are in society with this expectations, I don't blame anyone for thinking anything about gender. All I see is my friends who once were sad become happier when they transition or give themselves a different name or whatever.

So I'll call them what they like, refer to them how they wish, and if they need it, go with them to spaces that they've always been allowed to use. Luckily the women's hiking group I'm part of, and women's festival I've just come back from, and the toilets in the pubs I tend to attend have all been inclusive, so they feel safe and so do I.

It's not just about toilets it's hospital wards, single sex youth hostels, single sex military barracks, single sex changing rooms, and prisons (lots don't care about the prisons, as in their head neither them nor their DD will land in prison).

That should be quoting @Roxietrees but I accidentally dropped the quote