Termination yes or no. Sad sad situation

[Vodkaandlemonade]

Our DD is 25 weeks pregnant. Last scan shows the fetous/baby has a few problems.
She spoke to her consultant last week and he has advised she terminates.
She is seeing him again next week. Both her and DH havej had a couple of counselling appointments. Midwife is seeing them everyday.
Only me and her dad know that there is a problem.
We are scared of saying the wrong thing.
I feel awful but she is MY baby and I don't want her to be hurt.
Tonight she asked me what she should do. I couldn't answer.
Her dad couldn't answer.

The NHS and other medical professionals could use this thread as an example of how people don't trust them.

As others have said OP, be there to support your daughter. But if the consultant has advised termination, I'd be inclined to gently go that way.. I suspect the reason some posters are so dogmatic that consultants would NEVER suggest termination is because their experience is informed by situations where abortion was an option, rather than being advised. If things are so dire the consultant is recommending abortion, that's a whole different level.

And to the poster suggesting she "do her own research". Yes, ask questions, get the info but for pity's sake, consultants are highly specialised, highly trained, higly experienced. If you can't trust the information they give you then we have much bigger problems.

The fact that you are suggesting that PP and OPs daughter have heard what they wanted is disgusting.

I wanted to continue to my pregnancy despite knowing the outcome and every medical professional I came across advised me against it. As first it was presented as if it was the only option but I argued and argued.

They said I could continue but told me they strongly advised I did not. That ultimately the option was mine, but they advised I terminate. I remember vividly because I was arguing with DH and my Mum about it. They were both there. There was no subconsciously hearing anything. We asked them what they advised, I told them I wasn’t terminating and everyone advised I changed my mind.

I terminated in the end and I’m glad I did. I was treated with respect and dignity until the end. As was my DH. As for the person who asked about the remains, the hospital cremated.

@ExpectoOff bless you. That's must have been so hard for everyone.

With Expectoffs post maybe Op you should go to the appointments with your DD.
Her and her DH must be so shocked and upset. Being that one step removed from the situation. And your instinct will always be to protect your DD.

Oh Hun I feel for you and your partner, what a dreadful situation.

You've had plenty of advice, I'm just sending you hugs. 🙏

What an awful situation for everyone involved. Unfortunately the only people who can make this decision are you dd and her DH. Just be there for her to talk and let her know she has your support whatever she decides.

I'm so sorry for everyone involved. I'd follow the advice from the consultant.

For later, if you need it - one of the most comforting things I've heard about termination/miscarriage was from Mumsnet, when toddlers have said things like 'I was going to come before but I went 'Whoosh' back to where I came from, and came now instead.' It's come up a few times on 'woo' threads.

My SIL did not opt for the termination and went ahead with the pregnancy - baby born with lots of issues. He passed away before he was 5.
Not wishing away those years with him but it was brutal.

I’m not calling the OP a liar, but she was not there (and obviously neither was I). I don’t think it helps the OP to sidetrack but I wanted to make the point that the team looking after her will support her whatever decision she chooses to make.

Doctors aren't always right.

I would absolutely get many different professional options.

My aunt suffered toxoplasmosis during her pregnancy 40 years ago with my cousin.

The doctor advised her to terminate based on a scan, but my cousin was born absolutely healthy.

And yet, despite not being there, you feel able to say definitively that the consultant did not advise termination but simply offered it as an option. You don't know. You weren't there. And consultants do sometimes advise termination.

I've only read as far as this post @Scrambledbeans but before I continue, just wanted to acknowledge the service given by you and your colleagues, which must come at some personal cost 💐

Also suggest a second opinion.
You can only be there as a support and encourage listening to experienced specialists..It is sad. I'm sorry for you all.

OP as pp have said I definitely wouldn't be advising your dd on any course of action just making it clear you support her any way. It's really not clear from your post what problems the baby has which I understand you might not want to reveal. However some things are hugely important to decision making

If it was me I'd want to know how compatible is this baby with life. If you're being told that baby won't survive long despite medical help then this is completely different to Downs Syndrome, for example. I'd also want to know how much the child is likely to suffer. How likely are they to have a happy and comfortable life? How many painful procedures/medications are they likely to need? This is obviously quite subjective. If there is a specific condition eg a chromosomal abnormality or a specific structural heart condition then imo the best thing she can do is speak to others who have also been affected and gain real life experiences. She could google support groups etc. Sorry if I'm stating the obvious here!

I have a rare condition that can be diagnosed pre-birth. Many parents only a few years back were being advised to terminate and wrongly advised by clinicians that their baby would be 'mentally re%&£ded' amongst other things (sorry for the offensive language but I'm quoting verbatim here) The vast majority who have this condition have some learning quirks but are of normal intelligence. In fact I've proven that by becoming a doctor myself! My message here would be that most clinicians are very knowledgable and caring and more than likely won't lie to you intentionally but they will often take quite a utilitarian approach with their advice about termination. I've seen it with my own eyes. That's why my advice would be to try and speak to people who have lived it not just treated it.

Whatever your dd decides she has a fantastic mum looking after her and if she does her best to make an informed and thoughtful decision then there will not be a wrong decision. Wishing you all the best

Except I, and other posters who have shared their stories was there and did experience it: as I said up thread stop overriding women’s real life experiences with you inaccurate assumptions.

@Vodkaandlemonade I'm so sorry for your daughter and all the family affected, it's very hard and so sad.

I know that feeling of wanting a magic wand to wave away all your child's problems, no matter how old they are. You never stop worrying about them, do you.

I just wanted to add my thoughts and sympathy to all concerned, everything else has already been said up thread really. Be strong and be there for them, come what may.

Agree. The inference from some posters is that the parents hear what they want to hear - which is infantilising and insulting - and that a consultant can’t make a recommendation either way. I think what these posters fail to understand is that doctors have to follow the law - in this case the 1967 Abortion Act and the 1990 amendment.

In all cases TFMR has to be signed off by two doctors who agree that the case meets the legal threshold for termination on the grounds of foetal anomaly. If the severity/risk doesn’t meet the threshold for termination it won’t be offered. If it does, then in cases where - for want of a better phrase - there is a lesser degree of disability, a termination will be offered as an option. Where disability is profound or life limiting, or there is a risk to the mother, then the consultant often will recommend a termination after explaining the condition and why their recommendation is as it is. Everyone’s experience is different depending on the severity of their case. It’s not a one size fits all system, and nor should it be.

This. I’m so sorry for your experience. Your post brought me to tears.

No, what you said was that parents were hearing what they wanted to hear, and misinterpreting an option as a recommendation. That’s not the case - myself and several other posters have offered up our own experience and advised current UK law and NHS guidelines which absolutely refute your stance that consultants don’t recommend termination. At least have the decency to own the fact that what you were saying was wrong, and don’t try to frame it as a misunderstanding. Because it wasn’t.

OP I had a similar experience, though different as during a twin pregnancy so there was added complexity of another healthy baby involved. I was offered a tfmr or selective reduction in my case at 24 weeks and we had the procedure at 29 weeks.

she should use this time to get as much foresight as possible of what the lived experience of her options are. From meeting the specialists who would care for baby after birth if they were to live to the process for termination. Arc is also an excellent resource and helped me too.

after that, she’ll know what is right for her she just may need some support to articulate it. Whatever she does her situation is profoundly life changing and the experience will live with her long into the future. Big hugs, it is truly the most difficult thing. As long as you’re prepared to support her without any judgement, then you will do the right thing by her. This decision is only the start of her journey to process this x

I’ve been there and chose a termination at 21 weeks. It was devastating and took me a couple of years to recover mentally. My mother supported my decision, but afterwards she told me we’d never speak about it again, just like that. I really would have needed my mum as a should to cry on, but she wasn’t there for me so I’d only talk about happy things with her - while on antidepressants and therapy!

Please, tell your daughter you will be there for her whatever happens, and make yourself available and open as it will probably be painful whatever she chooses.

CheeseNcrackerz, mine was a twin pregnancy too - TTTS

Yes me too. I’m so sorry…

Not something most would consider termination worthy but he will never be independent, will never be able to be left unsupervised. Requires too much supervision to live in supported accommodation with his sister helping him, she has her own kids and life. The thought of what will become of him when she dies haunts his mum.

Fucking hell- "termination worthy".

This is about making a heart-breaking decision based on a foetus surviving, but potentially living a life of pain and suffering, with little quality of life, not getting rid of disabled people, because they might be a burden to others.

this is such a lovely post ❤️

Odfod. It's not about him being a burden. It's the fear of what will happen to him, how he will be treated when there is no one left who loves him and is able to care for him. Probably a secure home as he tries to attack his hallucinations and can accidentally hurt you. Have you not seen the news stories about care home staff abusing the residents? Who wants that life for their child?

So yes, some conditions are termination worthy if that child will have a shit life filled with pain or fear and neglect.

His family would never consider him a burden but he's a lot younger than all of us. How will he be treated by people who do, once we're dead and he has no one to advocate for him?

I'm sure you've thought about your kids future. What they will do, who they will love, where they will live, if they will have children of their own, what adventures will they have?

When deciding whether to have a child, you do consider their future. My relatives future is pretty bleak. His symptoms are unmanageable and so far no medication has been able to suppress or reduce them.

His future consists of whether his hallucinations will convince him to kill himself or someone else and whether the residential home he eventually ends up in will treat him kindly or neglect/abuse him due to his behaviour.

Would his mum have chosen this life for him if she had known? I doubt it.