Thread 25 Starmer - Cheers for a falling out among thieves

[DuncinToffee]

Previous thread

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5338688-thread-24-starmer-casting-the-net-wider?

@Saucery the DNR issue was particularly concerning during COVID where it was being put on vulnerable people’s notes without discussion or consent. There may be good medical reasons, but there should always be a conversation in my opinion.

but no aggressive treatment for infections or further illnesses if I was already at the end of my life.

My DF died in 2023 - 6 years after DM. Survived COVID, vaccinations (with bad grace). Started having intestinal problems and toddled along for some tests which he never really followed up, despite some rather high-level nagging from my DB. Eventually he fell over in the night, returning from the loo, and never got up. Turned out there had been the progression of a bowel cancer that just pushed his 90 year old system into a cardiac arrest.

Both my DBs have spent ages poring over the post mortem and wargaming what medicine he should have taken and if radiotherapy may have been better. I don't think they really saw my point of view (and DFs) that he was old, tired and really really really missed DM. The reason he rejected treatment was not because he was afraid of dying, but much, much more he was afraid of living. Old people can be very stubborn.

Remember what happened in the pandemic?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/13/new-do-not-resuscitate-orders-imposed-on-covid-19-patients-with-learning-difficulties

I think, as Zarah Sultana has said, if disabled and vulnerable people had equality in life, I would be more reassured about equality in making decisions about dying.

I agree. My sister died of cancer in a hospice. It was probably a better death than many, but ultimately she had a terminal illness and wanted the control. Cancer at the end of life is difficult death.

That is exactly what I was thinking of @PandoraSocks and @Evenstar , plus both older and very recent direct experiences where only the vigilance of carers/spouses/adult children meant they were challenged. This isn’t a one off, it’s every hospital admission, every GP consultation. Society is already telling some people their life is worth less than others and until that changes I can never feel at ease with a Bill like this.
Again, for the avoidance of doubt, I fully understand the feelings of people on the other side of this debate, to whom it must bring an immense feeling of relief.

Assisted dying, House of Commons

Labour 224-160 [15 did not vote]

(56%-40%)

LibDems 56-15 [2]
(76%-21%)

Conservatives 20-92 [5]
(17%-79%)

Green 4-0

(100-0%)

Reform 2-3
(40%-60%)

SNP 0-0 [9]
PC 3-1
(75%/25%)

N.Ireland
SDLP 1-0 [1]
DUP 0-5
UUP 0-1
TUV 0-1
APNI 0-1
SF 0-0 [7]

https://bsky.app/profile/sundersays.bsky.social/post/3ls2cs4g67s2u

Well I can't pretend I am happy with the outcome although I acknowledge the arguments from both sides.

As far as I can see all it will take now is a future government to decide to broaden the criteria or simplify the framework. Perhaps a sloppily written statutory instrument to 'update' legislation.

The safeguards are no more reliable than any other safeguard ie more often than not most helpful after the fact.

My child (nearly an adult) needs help with every aspect of life - from intimate care to following the most basic roadsafety. I have full responsibility for all aspects of their medical treatment. I think of that every time I administer whatever medication is required. They have absolute trust in me that I am making good choices for them.

When I am gone I suppose I have to hope someone else will step in to my shoes and I will have to trust that they will intervene where necessary. Because if the last few years have taught me anything it is not to trust in politicians or the systems that are supposed to be for our protection.

And on that doom riddled note I'll go and enjoy some sunshine.

When I am gone I suppose I have to hope someone else will step in to my shoes and I will have to trust that they will intervene where necessary. Because if the last few years have taught me anything it is not to trust in politicians or the systems that are supposed to be for our protection

This is exactly my fear if I die before my DH. ❤️

My MP made it clear long ago that he'd be voting against. I disagree with him but as it was a free vote he could vote as he saw fit.
I'm actually in favour of even more choice if people want to end their life, but it's a start if it becomes law. I appreciate that other people will have different views.

Well I will still need to go to Switzerland the moment I'm diagnosed with the first sign of dementia - I hope it won't happen and I'm fully aware the odds are in my favour, but I refuse to go that way.

My mum's dementia was alcohol inflicted so not going to happen to me, my dad's was Parkinsons related so if I'm diagnosed with that one it's off I go - the rest of my family don't have a history. We'll see how things progress.

I’ve resigned myself to having to wait until I die of something else if I get a diagnosis of dementia. At least my wish not to be treated for any other illness is documented, it’s also the reason I won’t accept the pneumonia vaccine. I’m pleasantly surprised the bill’s passed this stage.

I have Huntington’s Disease which is terminal illnesses with no cure.
It is also genetic with a fifty fifty risk of passing it on to your children - my dad gave it to me and my sister.

So for ten years I looked after my dad until his death knowing that I would end up dying the same dreadful death as him.

Huntingtons is classed as a rare disease and not enough is known about the suffering of families who deal with it.

I live in Scotland so won’t be able to use assisted dying.

All I want when the time comes is to choose to die before my quality of life means I can no longer control my body functions.

Do you think Scotland will follow England and Wales? The bill has passed to first vote

I am deeply disappointed that this has passed for many reasons. I have concerns around those with disabilities, coercion, and how it will actually work. Some but by all means not all?

You have to be mentally able to take this decision, often those on high doseage pain relief are unable to fully comprehend information they are being given. How is this determined?

You have to have under 6 months to live- those with dementia often live for years, deteriorating slowly. Who gets to determine the 6 month limit? What happens at 6 months and 1 day if they are still alive, but no longer able to make the decision? How will the system cope when people are applying regularly just in case?

How do you detect the subtleties of coercion? The societal pressure people will feel to do the right thing?

I think they will legalise assisted suicide, perhaps not on exactly the same basis as England and Wales.

I hope so- my dad decided to refuse food and water when he was in hospital.

As power of attorney I could have ignored his decision and insisted on a feeding tube being fitted

However I decided that it was the last be of control he had over the illness to die then.

So I supported him

I think we as a society need to talk about death more - it will happen to us all.

When I got my diagnosis in 2016 I was talking about the fact that huntingtons disease is generally a 15 year prognosis from diagnosis to death and some of friends didn't want to discuss dying.

I have planned and paid for my funeral.

We did that with my mum (cancer), everything was organised the way she and my dad wanted it. It was quite comforting in a way and it felt natural.

Same with my grandmother in the Netherlands in 2006. She had 6 weeks to 3 months to live, in increasing pain, to the point where morphine would have taken her dignity. She took the decision, she was 100% compos mentis. I am grateful she lived in a country where she could have the dignity she deserved after a life lived well.

I am interested to see that so many MPs who are on the left of Labour and represent areas of high deprivation voted against. Butler, Corbyn, Abbott, Bell Ribeiro, Burgon. Also Duffield . I feel I need to understand better. I don't think it's about bloodying Starmer's nose. I think they have more principles and it's not Starmer's cause. There is obviously another group of MPs for whom it's religious belief or a general 'pro life' stance but people such as Frances Ryan, Tanni Grey Thompson and the ex Silent Witness actor ( her name temporarily escapes me) do give me pause.

It was a free vote

My mum planned hers too (cancer).

She started planning it in 2020 when she got really bad and changed the guest list dependent on each stage of lockdown.

She lived until 2022. The last 3 months were horrid. She knew she would die. She was told about 8 weeks but lived another 13. The last 5 she spent 2 of them on hospital waiting for O2 and bed at home to come home and die.

She had a stomach drain, a chest drain (which she had for last year) and a nasal stomach drain. She couldn’t eat.

Im glad that people in that position can choose the right to end the final weeks of suffering.

I do want the right safeguards in place though for those with disabilities and cognitive impairments. No one should have the right to choose to end another life. It should always be the right to end your own.

My mum waited for me to come home and died peacefully without too much pain a few days later. Booking that flight was the hardest thing I ever had to do.

I know. I was interested in how people on the left voted, and why really.

Certainly on Twitter underneath Duffield's Tweet some posters think it's a Labour thing. For a range of reasons, mainly daft.