How on earth do I end these bedtime antics with toddler?

[tallache1]

Me and DP are at our absolute wits end with the whole bedtime circus we have to go through every night 😭. I stopped breastfeeding our 2.5 year old a few weeks ago because I couldn’t cope with the constant latching and unlatching before she fell asleep. But her behaviour is shocking now 😭

We start winding down around 7.30, give her a bath, read a book, maybe watch something non stimulating like the Gruffalo. For the next 2.5 hours she will get up, get out the bedroom and go downstairs. Run around. Say she’s hungry. Say she’s thirsty. Says she needs a wee. Asks for 4728284 different books. Until one of us cracks and takes her out in the car which is the only way to get her to sleep. WTF is going on? How do people have children that get into bed and go to sleep? When she’s getting up and creating we literally turn all the lights off and pretend to be asleep but can just hear her wreaking havoc downstairs.

Advice needed please 😭 me and DP are desperate for an evening to ourselves.

@tallache1 is there a difference between waking up from a nap and not napping at all for your nursery?

Our nursery has lots of kids in the 2-3yo room who don't nap at all. So they have a similar policy of not waking a sleeping child, but will happily direct the non-napping cohort to a different activity if requested by parents. (This has backfired on us a couple of times with DS falling asleep at about 4pm, but generally works well).

Can you try no nap on non-nursery days and then suggest dropping the nap at nursery too?

Keeping them awake on the car/bus/buggy is a pain when they are used to napping, but we found the odd weekend nap mattered much less to overall bedtime time/stress once the nursery nap + late bedtime cycle was broken.

Incidentally, DS is nearly 3 now and he generally sleeps 8:30-6:30 with no nap (and generally minimal bedtime fuss), so a late bedtime might just be how it goes for your kid too!

2 things stand out to me.

• have you tried replaced Breastfeeding feeding with another bonding physical act such as stroking her hair. She may be craving and needing attachment and proximity with you because she's missing the feeds. That's not meant to make you feel bad. I get it, I fed mine for 2 .5 years too.

-drop the nap. Sorry to be blunt but if she isn't sleepy enough at bed then nursery need to cap the nap at like 20 mins or non at all. -there is a sleep regression around years and can be triggered by a change so stopping Breastfeeding could have been that for her.

Remember she is very little. She is driven by instincts and isn't deliberately being frustrating. When she's coming to you 1000 times for a drink what she is really wanting is reassurance and connection with you. Spend lots of time in the day and evening reassuring her, giving her tons of love and cuddles, connecting by playing with her etc. If you reframe in your mind the way you think about the issue from being poor behaviour to analyze the attachment needs behind it you'll stop driving yourself mad and getting frustrated. It's all very developmentally normal.

mainly I’d say stop the nap and have a very definite routine of things you do in a particular order so she knows what to expect. Don’t let her talk you into deviating. Also I’d start wayyyy earlier. You should be aiming for 7.30 asleep at that age not just the start of routine

This.

She's doing it because she doesn't want to go to sleep and she knows that if she keeps pushing you she'll get to do something more fun instead.

You need to make it clear that going to sleep is the only option so she might as well do it.

Put in place an absolutely consistent routine. Ours is dinner, bath, three books, last cuddle, then bed. I would cut out the TV before bed because any kind of screens are stimulating, which is the very last thing you need.

She should be going into bed and lights off at the same time every night. No more stories, no more music, no more talking. One of you sits beside her bed until she falls asleep and puts her back in her bed every time she gets up, but otherwise you don't engage. If she cries, she gets a little cuddle and then back in bed.

She needs to understand that once the lights are out, whatever she says, whatever she does, the only thing that is going to happen is that you will keep putting her back into bed until she gets the message and goes to sleep.

My DD would not fall asleep before 10 pm if she had a nap (even 30 minutes) during the day. We have a pretty consistent routine and she does a lot of physical activities so it's not a matter of energy release. If there is no nap she falls asleep ~8.30pm.

Sounds hyper like my brother when he was a kid. Get her into toddler sports to exhaust her. Not the usual activities but something really high intensity and exhausting (but still fun).

Your bedtime routine needs to be rock solid and you don’t deviate, whatever she does. Get rid of the tv time as even the most calming programmes will stimulate them - make sure she isn’t watching any for at least 2 hours before bed.

Have your routine whatever it is (ours is bath, pjs on, glass of milk, teeth and hair, last wee, 2 x stories and then off to sleep). Include specific details such as - she has a water bottle in her bedroom so if she’s thirsty she doesn’t have to get up, there is a set snack she can have if she says she is hungry (ours is 1 oatcake), set number of stories that she chooses (ours is 2). You’re going to then hit a problem once she is in bed as sucking on you has been her sleep aid. She’s going to need to learn to manage without it and I’d have thought you’ll need to adopt some form of sleep training to support this (this doesn’t need to be leaving her to cry). I’d have a read and see what will work for you.

Once she is upstairs for bed do not take her back down under any circumstances or deviate from the routine, however long it takes. You’ll have a rough few weeks to start with but she should get the message. And speak to nursery - that rule is ridiculous and they need to change it. If they won’t comply I’d move her to a different one. I’d cap her nap at 30 mins personally and no nap if she isn’t asleep by 1.30. Stick to the same routine and the same timings every day so she has consistency, including weekends.

You. Need. To. Drop. The. Nap.
End of.

I don't care about your excuses- 'they need the nap'. Drop the bloody nap, seriously. It takes some effort and a couple of hard days.
If she's hungry at bed time then introduce a bed time snack before you go up- toast, cereal, banana, etc.

yes if she gets out 100 times, be as boring as possible about it too, not a hint of exasperation from you and she WILL give in eventually, will take 3 days of the same to work, please don’t feel bad about stopping the feeding, sounds like you are exceptionally dedicated parents, but time to make your life easier, she will be happier too with a firm routine, a strong personality does mean even stronger boundaries than usual, that doesn’t mean you are being ‘strict’ but your headstrong girl will need extra strong boundaries to feel safe.

I wouldn’t wrestle before bed tbh, i think it gives out the wrong vibe

Omg have you read my posts 😆 we’ve dropped it! It’s nursery that are still letting her have it and saying they can’t wake her. So she’s having these ridiculous mega naps in the middle of the day 🫠

@Houseshmouse can you request that she isn't put down for a nap at nursery? I was able to do this when my twins were in nursery.

Mine were like this. Some kids dont need as much sleep as others. Start the whole charade later in the evening, you need to find her sweet spot. and yes, it's the nap that is the problem. Nursery should be enforcing no nap

Another vote for 7.30 being way too late especially if that's when you are "starting to wind down" - mine were in bed lights out at 6.30-7 at that age, we'd start the wind down time at 6ish.

This is what I'd do.

My DS is like this. We were getting him to bed around midnight at the beginning, we've now got a routine and it can take up to 1.5hrs but 45 minutes is our average. We have tried everything to get there too.

My DS probably has high functioning ASD, and was triggered by taking away his cot but I just wanted to share that it can get better in time, but it will take you having more willpower than her! It's exhausting, and frustrating and a struggle but you will get to a new normal soon.

Sit with her until she falls asleep? Might take ages at the start but it will
improve.

Is she going outside after dinner? She needs a good couple of hours running up and down

If she is napping.. then it is way to early.

My UK friends seem to do: no nap, 6:30-7:30 bedtimes..

My friends in the country I live in now do: nap, 8:00-9:00 bed times. 2-5 year olds are still outside playing (cooler than earlier in the day) at 7-8pm here. All preschools and kindergartens require a nap. So you have no choice.

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My point to all this is you seem to be getting the naps at nursery, but then trying to stick to the UK early bed time. Of course that doesn't work for some kids.

Either nap + later bed. Or no nap + early bed.

Decide on that first, before any chat about routines.

If you can’t change her nursery then your choices are
Start bedtime much earlier (say 6pm)and let her muck around for 3 hours
Start bedtime much later (say 8:30pm) and hope that she mucks around for 1-1.5 hours instead
Don’t send her to sleep until she’s tired to save everyone’s sanity. If that’s 9pm+ then she’s still getting 10 hours at night and a nap in the day which is technically enough.

My dd was a nightmare too- dropped her nap at 15 months and wouldn’t sleep until 10-10:30pm every night while her older brother was fast asleep by 7pm. She was up at 7am bright eyed and bushy tailed. I ended up accepting that she wasn’t tired and started her bedtime routine later. She didn’t get fun and games while her brother was asleep- it was boring, calm and quiet.

I sort of get it, but you’re only making it harder on everyone by not teaching her how to go to sleep in her own bed.

My friends had a child like this. In the end, they used to just let him play in the living room until they fell asleep. Some nights it was 10pm, others it was 7pm. Might be worth a try?

I'd be livid at this. When my DS went to nursery, they stopped the naps before I did!

It's probably not the car but your company that settles her after being used to be so close to you BF, we used to read to them at night until they fell asleep - sometimes 2 stories, then sing them a couple of songs, but if they were still asleep after that we'd read a really boring book to ourselves and they would soon drop off! Then we crept out.

We had this when we transitioned to a bed from a cot and my son got up endlessly so we did 2 things - the silent return to bed technique from super nanny - first time they get up you say what's wrong? and tuck into bed (so a nice return to bed) and then each time after that return to bed silently - 35 times the first night but after week we were down to maybe 5 returns to bed - he got no interaction after the first time we returned to bed so less incentive to the child to keep getting up.
Then once we were down to 5 returns each night ( approx) we did a reward chart - he was allowed a sticker every night he stayed in bed and did not get up ( he was allowed up to pee once as a 'get out of jail free' type thing) and when he got to 5 stickers he got a much longed for toy and it took ages for him to earn the toy (which we had on the mantlepiece as incentive for him to see) then when he started getting better we made it 7 stickers to get the toy and 10 stickers etc. Luckily he was mad about Thomas the tank engine so the trains weren't too expensive and there was an end in sight as only so many trains to buy but it worked a treat
Our second wasn't so bad so we went straight for the incentive sticker/toy thing and it really worked for him also.