How on earth do I end these bedtime antics with toddler?

[tallache1]

Me and DP are at our absolute wits end with the whole bedtime circus we have to go through every night 😭. I stopped breastfeeding our 2.5 year old a few weeks ago because I couldn’t cope with the constant latching and unlatching before she fell asleep. But her behaviour is shocking now 😭

We start winding down around 7.30, give her a bath, read a book, maybe watch something non stimulating like the Gruffalo. For the next 2.5 hours she will get up, get out the bedroom and go downstairs. Run around. Say she’s hungry. Say she’s thirsty. Says she needs a wee. Asks for 4728284 different books. Until one of us cracks and takes her out in the car which is the only way to get her to sleep. WTF is going on? How do people have children that get into bed and go to sleep? When she’s getting up and creating we literally turn all the lights off and pretend to be asleep but can just hear her wreaking havoc downstairs.

Advice needed please 😭 me and DP are desperate for an evening to ourselves.

Start earlier. Set boundaries. Cut out tv.
6-6.30 wind down (tv could go hear) glass of milk/water make sure she's had supper.

6.30-7 upstairs bath/wash pjs on. Choose max two books. Read books settle into bed.

7pm in bed. Lights out/ night light on. Night night kisses and leave.

Return to bed repeatedly every time she gets out. Every single time.

Will be hell on Earth for a short period of time. But will work.

We also use a yoto which is nice after we have read stories they can lay and listen to story. So when DC appears with 'I'm not tired' I return with you lay in bed and listen to stories.

Good luck.

Would also challenge the policy at nursery. That's bull shit

How much was she sleeping before you stopped breastfeeding? Was it 8pm - 6:30am then too?

I think unfortunately you might just have a child (like mine) who needs less sleep than average. So she's getting overtired because by the time she's tired enough to sleep she's too wound up and frustrated to be able to relax and sleep.

If nursery are being unhelpful with the long naps, I would ask them to try having no nap at all. Then try doing bedtime as normal that evening (maybe with dad)? And see if you can kick-start a new routine from there.

If she’s getting up at 7am and having a nap she may not actually be tired enough?
Look up Second Star to the Right Sleep on instagram and Little Nest Sleep is another good one. They are both holistic sleep consultants. So very much pro connection etc rather than leaving to cry type thing so may be right for you. They have loads of info on their pages for free.

My son did this for a while and would have us up to 1am sometimes so we got tough and basically did the Supernanny bedtime, yes I realise people don't like her or whatever but it did work, just kept putting him back and ignoring whatever nonsense he made up to try and stay up more! We got all sorts of comments and emotional manipulation but it worked!

Disagree about overtired. Kids more often just take the sleep they need (over tiredness can cause dysregulation at bedtime but it tends to be sounding more upset). I would say shes not going to sleep because she isnt tired. Especially more likely if your routine was working and now isnt, why would they suddenly need more sleep? Sleep needs drop with age, and the time awake to feel tired enough increases.
Your issue is the nap plus the 7am wake up. My 2.5y old does 1.5hr nap and only sleeps 8-6. We have just dropped it to an hour, as bed was getting closer to 9pm or he was waking at 5.30. She's probably ready to drop the nap, but if nursery won't allow for it the bedtimes will be late. Two of my friends children were doing the exact same as you describe and the minute the nap was gone they slept 11-12hours, bedtimes returned to normal.

I think it’s too late and she’s overtired I would try getting her into bed by 6.45.

Drop the nap, bring bedtime slightly earlier.

Cut out TV from bedtime routine.

Lots of cuddles and tickles and reconnection contact, built into your bedtime routine.

Story in bed.

Yoto player on (ours is set for bedtime music only after 7pm), stroke/rub their back until they fall asleep.

Eventually get won't need their back rubbed or need you there while they fall asleep. 2.5y is still young to expect them to fall asleep by themselves especially when they've had you there every night until recently. Remove yourself gradually.

Good luck!

You can’t expect her to sleep if she’s not tired enough. We had this with my toddler. Almost identical as I fed to sleep till she was 2.5. My daughter at that age and now (almost 3.5) sleeps around 11 hrs in total. So if 1.5 of those are in day you’re getting 9 overnight. I had a stern talk with nursery and they agreed to wake her after 30 mins. In our case I feel she’s better even now having a short nap than none at all. Other suggestions, pick her up as late as you can, take her to park / for a run around after nursery. Only do “bedtime” when she’ll actually go to sleep so you’re not wasting all your own energy on this battle. I was terrified last summer as I had baby two in August but my toddler did get easier to manage. Now she will have a bath, read a couple stories in bed and then turn light out and go to sleep whilst I put baby to sleep. I honestly couldn’t have imagined it.

Hi OP I also have a 2.5 yr old who does exactly the same. He still breastfeeds but has recently stopped breastfeeding to sleep. I think basically he has never learned to lie down and go to sleep because I always breastfed to sleep. In our case it is exacerbated by the room being quite light (we are in rented place we are moving out of soon so we are not going to put up new blinds). Tbh i have taken the view that it is a phase and am just going so try it. I lie down with him and put him back down til he goes to sleep (which takes like 2 hrs each night - I know this is overkill and a bad idea and I don’t recommend it but he cries if I leave which I am too much of a wimp to let happen). So I am afraid that I have no advice but maybe some reassurance that this is a thing that happens at this age. My DS has a big sister who was also breastfed until this age and although I don’t remember the same level of bedtime disruption there was a bit, and she also never really learned to do daytime naps herself. But she aged out of the issues and now sleeps normally.

I think if she used to fall asleep for DP without breastfeeding, then DP needs to do bedtimes for now (agree I would start slightly earlier) and you ideally need to go for a walk. As a PP says, you have swapped breastfeeding for being in the car as a way to soothe to sleep, but DP cuddling can be the swap and once it's established, you can gradually wean off it. Also, she's old enough for you to explain this (repeatedly, at a less pressured time, not at bedtime). We stopped BF way earlier but at this age we weaned off staying in DS1's room by setting a clear limit on the amount of times we would stroke his back before leaving the room. So now he knows exactly how many stories we get (3 - and if he chooses more than 3 he needs to choose which one to put back), what order we do things in, how many times we will stroke his back, and when it's time to say goodnight. We got some crying at first but actually only for a few days and I think he is happier knowing where the boundaries are.

Sorry my post should say - I have decided it is a phase and I am just going to put up with it.

Tell the nursery 1hr tops for the nap. Start bedtime as soon as you get home. No tv or any screens. Do active tasks like putting the non breakable food shopping away, some sorting out of washing, some gardening etc. It sounds strange but it will get the focus as it’s a job to be done. Then making the dinner with an art activity - drawing, those water colouring in sheets are great. Blocks, jigsaw. After dinner you continue with clearing up with singing. Same songs every night. Then bath and into bed with two books to chose from. Reading, night light that puts pictures on the walls, some music on the background- even the noise from inside the car. Return to bed every time. In two weeks you’ll see a big difference. It will be tough but stay calm and happy. Breeze through it (even though you’ll be thinking oh no).

This!
You need to be firm.

Child proof her room and either get a child lock for the door or a baby gate and leave her to it. If you are "cracking" every night then she knows her current behaviour is working to get what she wants - i.e. not going to bed.

Keep evenings as boring as possible if she is getting up and you don't want to gate/latch her room.

Literally just - "It is bedtime" put in bed and shut door every single time.

Mine are 3 and 4 and still have a child latch on their door, and before anyone moans, it's safe and recommended to gate/lock young children in their room at night as in case of a fire you know exactly where they will be.

We dropped any nap completely at 2 as even 30mins meant DC was up past 9pm.

We set an alarm and get up a similar time (by 7.15am) every day, even if DC has gone to sleep slightly later.

I read an interesting article about sleep by Dr Chatterjee (GP, on This Morning / Breakfast News etc) and he said if we go to bed and get up at vastly different times across the week we can send our body into a jet lag.

Of course I can't remember the exact science, I just thought it all made perfect sense when we were letting our toddler sleep to 8am when he had been awake after 9pm the night before, but then expecting the next bedtime to be earlier.

I have struggled with going to sleep my whole life really. Even now as an adult I need to listen to meditations etc. So I'm not too concerned with my own DC being able to just go to sleep himself yet. We will all learn what he needs while he grows and develops.

This is what I would do too. Stay in room still and quiet telling her back to bed if she gets up, lie still and quiet, time to sleep etc.

I think you need to stop with the car thing, and just keep returning to her bed silently time and time again. And pretending you’re all asleep is also insanity. Take charge!

We used to have a gate at the bedroom door then put classic fm on softly and provide some toys and a light up thing on the side of the or toddler bed for them to play with. I didn't just leave them with nothing to do, but they knew they were expected to just wiffle by themselves once they'd had a story. They'd fall asleep eventually and were never left to cry or anything, but there's nothing wrong with getting them used to entertaining themselves.

Thanks for the extra comments, too many to reply to but some good tips so going to try some. I agree she doesn’t need a nap as she does go to bed easier without one but nursery have said they are not allowed to wake them 😭 I literally mention it weekly and say please can you try nudge her awake! It’s absolutely crazy she’s allowed to sleep that long and really impacting us as a family. It’s hard though as she’s settled there and loves her key worker so don’t really want to move her.

My DD is slightly older at 3.5 years but we do:
Bath 630pm
Bed 7pm
Lights out 730pm
This has been the routine since little for mine - although DS nearly 8 is more like 730 bed and 8pm sleep recently.

We read stories between 7-730pm. No playing. No screens (we have no screens in the week at all). After 730pm I either lie in bed with DD while she falls asleep or sit next to the bed (whatever she prefers). I've stopped the food and drink requests after 6.30pm. It took a while but she now knows tough luck after 6.30pm. Same for leaving the bedroom. We don't leave after we go to bed (7pm). We go for a wee before going to bed so there is no reason to within 1 hour of that really.

How active is she between nursery pick up and bedtime? I find the more active the easier to get to sleep. We walk or scoot home from nursery up a slight hill. I try to go to the park when time allows too on the way home.

@AmyDuPlantier desperate times call for desperate measures 😆

Hey, if you have Instagram reach out to soundasleepguru

she has a template letter she can provide for you to give to nursery which completely counter acts the stupid “no wake policies” they have. There is no research at all to back these up and her letter is full of research and studies to help with this.

She also has someone working for her called Hana who works with toddlers for sleep and if it is something you can afford I’d 10000000% recommend.

id definitely say from my experience with them, that it’s the nap causing the problem, there’s no sleep pressure there to fall asleep independently. But check them out honestly working with them has changed our lives. Daughter happily goes to sleep on her own 7:30 and we have to wake her at 7:15 the next day. She still has a nap and practically asks to go for it now. Complete 360 to what we dealt with before working with them. Everything they suggest is backed by actual research and when you start to learn about it it makes complete sense.

Absolutely drop any napping after 2pm and be prepared to move nurseries if they won't support you in it. At her age maybe you could find one that's more of a pre-school rather than with a babies room etc?

Another thing I'd try, if you haven't already, is start the wind down for bed half an hour earlier and introduce other unnecessary steps to create more of a winding down narrative, for example 3 separate nightlights, after story 1 nightlight 1 goes off, after story 2 nightlight 2 goes off, after story 3 it's pitch black, mum cuddles for 10 minutes then rain noise goes on...

I also should have added.

if my nursery had the same no wake policy and we couldn’t change their mind, I’d move my daughter. It’s that important and that impactful on sleep.