Why do our kids hate secondary school?

[noblegiraffe]

Together with the news from PISA that our teens are the unhappiest in Europe, new research shows that engagement and enjoyment of school falls off a cliff once kids leave primary and start secondary.

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/revealed-the-school-pupils-who-disengage-during-year-7-dip/

https://www.thedeveloperlive.co.uk/opinion/opinion/why-do-uk-teens-have-among-the-lowest-life-satisfaction-in-the-oecd

"It found that while engagement declines through school “in almost every country”, the magnitude “is more pronounced in England”, suggesting disengagement is not just a symptom of age “but something atypical” that is happening in England.

There has been lots and lots of discussion about the impact that social media is having on teen mental health - what about the impact of having to go to secondary schools that they clearly don't like?

I’d happily take that if it meant happier kids. I also question how meaningful results are that come from curriculum taught so much to the exam. How much of that knowledge is retained or applied more widely? I know this very much isn’t teachers’ faults. Using that single metric of grade achieved is driving a lot of the things that both children and teachers hate.

Op I think it’s always been like that, well it was for me anyway. I loved primary school was happy and thriving. I left school with poor qualifications.

But a number of the differences aren't educational: they are cultural.

This isn't a secondary example but people often like to trot out the "They don't go to school until later in Finland and the child are happier/do better," argument. Yes, that's true but it isn't because of the education system. It's because the expectations of what all parents must teach their children to know and do before starting school are higher. There are much higher rates of parental involvement and responsibility when it comes to their child's education. Over here, it can become a battle to get some parents to even see their child's education as important, nevermind actually take an active role in it.

You cannot copy an education system whilst ignoring the culture of the country you're copying from.

They banned phones here in Australia there not allowed at school altogether you can't have it in your bag it will get confiscated

I havent read the full thread so this may already have been mentioned...

Op, that graph is terrible. It's a classic example of an extremely misleading use of a false origin, and it has clearly misled many on here to think that "engagement" (whatever that specifically means) goes from very high to vanishingly low, when it actually goes from 8.2 to 5.5.

This is the kind of graph I show in lessons about misleading graphs.

If I recall correctly you are a maths teacher so I'm sure you'd have predicted how people would have been misled by it

We have kids with extra time and movement breaks - they're separate access arrangements.

exactly. i am watching dd 14 revise for exam after exam, although i admire her hardwork can't deny that she's in so much pressure. Wish she had more time to enjoy this age and enjoy her interests instead of worrying ceaselessly about the future

Where does that pressure come from though. If parents are clear about the need for balance, and help kids understand there are many different routes to success, that realistically your results at 14 won’t be remembered when you’re 20 where are 14 year olds getting pressured?

I get it, my 12 year olds was worrying about his end of year tests at school despite me being pretty laid back about it and him being relatively academic. The school are saying they’re not making a big deal of it (and knowing their ethos I trust this to be the case) and yet he was a ball of anxiety. How have we got to where 12 year olds think their future hinges on a P7 maths assessment.

Pressure comes from the accountability system.

I think it depends on the school. My children are genuinely happy at their school, as are the vast majority of their friends. However, it’s independent.

One of the things which attracted us to the school was the fact that the children looked happy and engaged walking between lessons. They walk with a sense of purpose. Many other schools I see have pupils who are walking with slumped shoulders and dragging their feet.

They have a strict uniform (with blazers and jackets, and boys have ties). Many of the buildings are old and not new and shiny, and aren’t necessarily an ideal temperature. They have very long days, and go to school on Saturdays. None of those things seem to impact happiness.

The differences I see is that teachers and pupils, on the whole, respect each other. Bad behaviour and bullying simply aren’t tolerated. Both of these things are dealt with swiftly and effectively. Pupils do a wide range of subjects, including many extra curricular things. That means children get to find the things they like and enjoy. They have large range of subjects to choose from. Another big different is sport. They do lots more than other schools (3 afternoons a week, plus extra curricular of their choice). As they get older, they can choose which sport they do, so aren’t forced to do something they dislike. The mobile phone policy is very strict; one of the strictest I know. They aren’t allowed to take smartphones to school until 6th form (and brick phones should be handed in). Whilst I’m sure there’s some bending of those rules, the strict policy means that pupils aren’t generally able to use their phones during the day. It means pupils have to engage with each other.

In short, I think the most important things to improve happiness would be zero tolerance of bad behaviour and bullying, very strict phone policies, and a wide range of subjects and sports which means pupils can find their strengths and do things they enjoy.

"No-one needs to send their child to an independent school because most state schools are good"

Then alsp:
"State schools are too strict, too rigid, curriculum too narrow, behaviour is poor, many parents don't value education, there is a SEN crisis + no support, they are damaging our children's mental health"

I know kids just as burnt out and miserable at independent schools and grammar schools.

Not saying there aren't but OP is against independent schools and has given me the argument that most state schools are good yet then posts this thread

I agree especially with the respect. That school sounds exactly like the one our son went to. Respect was clear right from day one, in fact it was clear during the open days and intro sessions. It wasn’t fake either. The difference compared with open days at other schools was clear. Pupils giving tours would be stopping at classroom doors and gently knocking the open door to ask the teachers if they could bring in their group, there was real friendly interaction between them and teachers, and the teachers would welcome the touring kids, sit them down at tables and talk to them, leaving us parents idly watching on! At other open days they were totally different, led-around by bored pupils who didn’t engage and were ignored by teachers when we entered classrooms, teachers barely looked at us let alone engaged with us and completely blanked the children. Like chalk and cheese. Respect works both ways! Once he was at school, it was the same. At parents evenings, the pupil was invited, and the teachers would not only shake our hands, they’d shake the pupils hand too and talk to them directly rather than us, telling them what was working, what wasn’t etc. On a camping outdoors weekend, son ended up in a canoe with the headmaster, had a whale of a time - told DS to call him Chris - back at school, DS knew it was back to being “Dr xxxxx” and formality. You can have discipline and respect in a fun friendly way! There’s a time and a place and all that.

I also echo the need for consistent zero tolerance of bullying etc, which despite written policies and posters on walls is getting worse rather than better. Teachers need to stop ignoring it and victim blaming!

Dd went from a small primary school with one lovely teacher to a massive secondary where she had a very complicated timetable from day 1 and had to change classes every five minutes for lessons. I should add that she’s autistic so the wheels completely came off, she is now out of school while we wait for a specialist which is rare as hens teeth to get into due to them being oversubscribed. We need to get with the times and stop the Victorian era of schools. More relaxed uniforms and trying to make one size fits all because it doesn’t.

Given that I’ve spent the last however many years posting repeatedly and at length about the crisis in state schools regarding funding, staffing and building conditions it really doesn’t sound like I’d make blithe statements like “most state schools are good”.

Most state schools are barely holding it together.

I agree. Most of Europe manage without school uniform, many getting better or equal ‘results’.

School here has been built on control and coercion and it’s only getting worse in 2025.

So no surprise when parents choose to opt out of state education if they can. I mean, you can hardly blame them.

I agree, and it’s why so many pupils do so much better when they go to college at 16. They’re treated more as adults, no stupid uniform rules, more respect from staff, etc.

Once I escaped my bullying hell hole crap comp, I did O levels at college by evening classes and the difference was stark. Completely different attitude of the teachers, no micro managing of irrelevances like uniform!

Far better attitude of class mates as they wanted to be there to learn and clearly happy to be free of the straitjacket of school! One lad in one of my evening classes has been in my form at school and was a right pain in the arse - quiet as a mouse at college, no trouble at all, turned up,did the work, went home again - he was like a different person compared with when he was at school.

Different environment, different behaviour and attitude!

I don’t think it is about school it’s about society. Schools do have rules and overall it’s the one place that does attempt actual discipline, people don’t like it. The UK has become very much as has much of the western world all about the self, I’m so free spirited, I am autonomous, I can be whatever I want to be, identify as to what I want, do not crush me. So schools have to function in this ever changing society that has moved more quickly than they have.

My DS attended a not great local school but the year before he started a new head started. He was a disciplinarian and very strict. The school turned around and achieved the best results it had ever had. He left a couple of years ago and results have slipped.

@Another76543 those children will most likely have been filtered by an entrance exam. Any low level income scholarship kids will have very engaged parents. That’s what independent schools do, filter. State schools can’t do that.

That’s because children are sometimes sent to a school which isn’t suited to them. We should have different schools to suit different children, be that academic, vocational, sporty, music etc. Children are likely to be happiest when they are in an environment which suits their personality. For example, tutoring a non academic child intensely so they scrape the 11+, and then sending that child to a very academic school, isn’t going to lead to a happy child. My children are very happy at school because we spent time looking at different schools and deciding which environment would suit them best. However, not all families have the possibility of doing that. The state education system needs an entire overhaul.

My dd says she does not want to stay pm for 6th or go to college. She sees it as a simlar setting to school. Although she doesn't truly know if thats the case for her education equals over the top control and no home /college balance. She's hoping to go to an animal college type place.

At school she thinks she's going to fail everything. I told her to do her best for herself. Not her best for the school. Her own personal achievements.

A similar system already exists in some independent schools, but I don’t know how you’d implement it in the state system as it takes space and staff resources. With the house system, year 7 and 8s have a separate house/building where they go for registration, break and lunchtimes. They have their own space, as well as a separate housemaster and another member of staff who helps with any problems; even simple things like lending spare sports kit if they’ve forgotten one item. They have lessons as other years do, and walk between different classrooms and teachers. They are introduced to secondary school gradually rather than thrown in at the deep end alongside 1000 other pupils. Some schools even have Y7 and Y8s eating their lunch separately. It works really well. There’s a big difference between an 11 year old and 13 year old.

I went to school elsewhere in Europe

Leaving aside the curriculum, some things that were different and I think would make a difference were:

• Secondary started at 13/14

• No uniform

• Teachers addressed by first names (autonomy and mutual respect expected)

• Each group had a 'home' classroom, where you left your stuff (coats, bags, etc) and morning tutorials and all common subjects would take place. Students only moved rooms for practicals and options.

None of that ridiculous musical chairs that creates chaos every hour in UK schools.

• Students would repeat a year if they failed more than two subjects (with an option to move up with two pending subjects that they needed to pass before the finals)

• Attendance was monitored but students were trusted to know that you'd fail if you never attended, and to decide if they'd be better off skipping a class and revising in the library or going for a walk before an exam

Achievement was average-high. Bog standard small town secondary school.

DD is in year 11 in the UK, 'good' state secondary ina small town. She describes it as 'a jungle '. Has hated every minute and her MH has been under strain throughout. Bright, well behaved child with ASD, top of her primary school. She is convinced she'll fail most of her GCSEs.
We have high hopes that college will give her some confidence back.

So then you understand why parents choose independent and that for many parents it is an attempt to minimise a bad experience in school? So stop saying to these parents that there are many acceptable state options when you yourself have just stated "many state schools are barely holding it together". In that sentence you've just answered your own initial Q!