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Thread 23 Starmer - Reflux Remedy

988 replies

DuncinToffee · 06/05/2025 20:44

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https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5319797-thread-22-starmer-running-up-to-local-elections?page=40&reply=144097823

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71
Goldenbear · 12/05/2025 14:54

BIossomtoes · 12/05/2025 14:46

It’s not hard for me because this constituency is blue central. The Tory majority fell last year but we’ve still got a Tory MP. Since my vote achieves the square root of fuck all I may as well vote with my heart.

Oh yes, sorry, you did post that, yes makes sense!

Rummly · 12/05/2025 14:55

PandoraSocks · 12/05/2025 12:22

I have to say I am done with Labour now. Starmer is trying to appeal to the Reformites, who are never going to vote Labour anyway.

It is bitterly disappointing.

I wouldn’t change your mind because of this issue.

All the parties are dishonest about it, and always have been. The simple, plain fact is that no government can control immigration. Curbing legal immigration would collapse public services and cause a lot of damage to the private sector.

And if people want to come here in boats or under lorries or aircraft landing gear they will. The Tories are embarrassing in their rhetoric about it. Similarly, Labour cannot ‘smash the gangs’. They both have to appeal to unpleasant instincts because that’s how politics works. It’s painful to watch. God knows what the Libs propose, but if they were anywhere near government you’d hear the same from them.

The worst are Reform, of course, because they boast and strut the most but have no greater prospect of stopping a single asylum seeker.

There are arguments to be had about the current fitness of international treaties, sure. And off-shore processing. And we can be more efficient. But there is a careful process of evaluation, research, fact finding, decision and tiers of appeal. It’s never quick.

Withdrawal from the ECtHR (but not the text of the Convention, which could be domesticated), for which there is a respectable argument for other reasons, won’t make any appreciable difference to immigration or asylum. Other conventions place a responsibility on nations for asylum seekers, and I would expect us to act humanely with or without international codes.

In the end a government would have to threaten asylum seekers with preemptive force. I do not believe for a moment that British people would accept armed repulsion of refugees, whether genuine or chancers. If a few people would accept that, they were always on the ghastly fringe anyway.

The Tories and Labour are as bad as each other for mendacious posturing. And Reform will fail their credulous followers spectacularly.

Interested in this thread?

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PandoraSocks · 12/05/2025 15:00

I wouldn’t change your mind because of this issue

Rummly, are you a bloke?

Alexandra2001 · 12/05/2025 15:00

Public services didn't collapse when migration was around 200k per year.

If we'd never had left the EU migration would still be around this figure, your party gave us Brexit.

its also quite probable that x channel migration wouldn't be the issue it is now either... look at when exactly the numbers rose v quickly?

Alexandra2001 · 12/05/2025 15:02

In the end a government would have to threaten asylum seekers with preemptive force. I do not believe for a moment that British people would accept armed repulsion of refugees, whether genuine or chancers. If a few people would accept that, they were always on the ghastly fringe anyway

A few years ago, yes but now? i'm not so sure, i think force, short of shooting migrants, would be more than acceptable.

Look at how the US is dealing with migrants with popular public support.

OneAmberFinch · 12/05/2025 15:04

Fwiw as a middle class conservative voter with deep Reform sympathies I think all the suggested policies in today's white paper are the common sense which was sadly lacking in the Boris years.

The overall theme of "let's reduce immigration, but also change the shape of it to bias it towards people who will be able to make a strong contribution to, and integrate with, the people of this country" is wonderful.

I'm nearly single-issue on immigration and I'd consider voting Labour over Reform if this direction of travel continued (wouldn't vote Tory if an election were held tomorrow, but maybe if they really reform) - assuming it translated to large scale reductions in total numbers

Goldenbear · 12/05/2025 15:04

Alexandra2001 · 12/05/2025 15:02

In the end a government would have to threaten asylum seekers with preemptive force. I do not believe for a moment that British people would accept armed repulsion of refugees, whether genuine or chancers. If a few people would accept that, they were always on the ghastly fringe anyway

A few years ago, yes but now? i'm not so sure, i think force, short of shooting migrants, would be more than acceptable.

Look at how the US is dealing with migrants with popular public support.

Edited

Exactly and this is quite regularly referenced on here as a good thing.

bombastix · 12/05/2025 15:04

No this is not quick and it will be difficult. I confess to actually being pissed off with my own leftist side because of their focus away from ordinary working people. Left governments dissolve if they are perceived to be solely based on minority needs. Labour are doing the right thing. However the narrative is dire. We are one country not some disparate collection of groups. Ironically very leftist and very rightist politicos agree on that. A pox on both of them, as they achieve the same effect of division.

ilovesooty · 12/05/2025 15:07

Alexandra2001 · 12/05/2025 15:02

In the end a government would have to threaten asylum seekers with preemptive force. I do not believe for a moment that British people would accept armed repulsion of refugees, whether genuine or chancers. If a few people would accept that, they were always on the ghastly fringe anyway

A few years ago, yes but now? i'm not so sure, i think force, short of shooting migrants, would be more than acceptable.

Look at how the US is dealing with migrants with popular public support.

Edited

I think some Reform voters would be quite happy to see migrants shot. After all, quite a few supported Ben Habib in wanting the dinghies sunk.

DuncinToffee · 12/05/2025 15:07

Plenty of posters would be quite happy with tent camps and for taking away rights from a particular group. They are probably cheering the US on as well.

OP posts:
bombastix · 12/05/2025 15:08

OneAmberFinch · 12/05/2025 15:04

Fwiw as a middle class conservative voter with deep Reform sympathies I think all the suggested policies in today's white paper are the common sense which was sadly lacking in the Boris years.

The overall theme of "let's reduce immigration, but also change the shape of it to bias it towards people who will be able to make a strong contribution to, and integrate with, the people of this country" is wonderful.

I'm nearly single-issue on immigration and I'd consider voting Labour over Reform if this direction of travel continued (wouldn't vote Tory if an election were held tomorrow, but maybe if they really reform) - assuming it translated to large scale reductions in total numbers

Well that’s because it’s old Labour policy from 1960s! Roy Jenkins. Now there’s someone with some brains.

The paper is long overdue and let’s get on with being a pragmatic country improving the lot of all within. That’s old Labour whatever the bullshit in the Telegraph

BIossomtoes · 12/05/2025 15:10

OneAmberFinch · 12/05/2025 15:04

Fwiw as a middle class conservative voter with deep Reform sympathies I think all the suggested policies in today's white paper are the common sense which was sadly lacking in the Boris years.

The overall theme of "let's reduce immigration, but also change the shape of it to bias it towards people who will be able to make a strong contribution to, and integrate with, the people of this country" is wonderful.

I'm nearly single-issue on immigration and I'd consider voting Labour over Reform if this direction of travel continued (wouldn't vote Tory if an election were held tomorrow, but maybe if they really reform) - assuming it translated to large scale reductions in total numbers

And there we have it. Thank you for the confirmation @OneAmberFinch.

cardibach · 12/05/2025 15:12

I’m concerned about next year’s Senedd elections. I had decided to vote Plaid, which I’ve done before, but I’ll have to check now that it won’t split the vote and left Reform in. I’m in a pretty solid Labour constituency currently (Vaughan Gething’s) but I’m not sure anything is solid this time round. I align pretty closely with Plaid when I just look at policies, and I’m (increasingly) Indy curious.

OneAmberFinch · 12/05/2025 15:18

BIossomtoes · 12/05/2025 15:10

And there we have it. Thank you for the confirmation @OneAmberFinch.

Always happy to be of service @BIossomtoes :)

OneAmberFinch · 12/05/2025 15:24

bombastix · 12/05/2025 15:08

Well that’s because it’s old Labour policy from 1960s! Roy Jenkins. Now there’s someone with some brains.

The paper is long overdue and let’s get on with being a pragmatic country improving the lot of all within. That’s old Labour whatever the bullshit in the Telegraph

"Let's allow businesses to very cheaply import lots of migrant workers to suppress wages" was/should never have been seen as a left wing policy position and it was good to see them explicitly call it out in the white paper.

I will be interested to see in practice what their "working with industry groups to develop labour shortage strategies" actually ends up looking like. Will be watching closely. I wonder if something like the Australian industry award based system would ever fly here. (Industry-wide negotiation on specific pay, conditions, overtime etc that sets an industry-specific "minimum wage/conditions" floor that takes into account realities of the sector, e.g. care workers doing overnight shifts as standard)

Alexandra2001 · 12/05/2025 15:29

Labour will need to start funding the college system properly inc paying staff.

They ve been on strike recently over pay.

If they want the FE's to start training more people in combination with employers, they'll need to get on with it... or the next Govt will be taking the praise for it and it wont be a Labour one.

bombastix · 12/05/2025 15:56

Well I really think the “cheap wages, lots of migration” is about the Conservative Party writ. Exploitation for over a decade with flat wages, zero hours contracts and bigger all representation for working people. If I were a business person who wanted low labour costs I would have loved Tory policy, and it was the reason that Boris implemented it. It may have been half the reason for Brexit.

I would like Labour to start talking about working people, what they need and what makes a good country. All these allegations that they play on Reform’s ground is largely because they seem to have stopped bothering. My argument is if they’d kept that in focus they probably wouldn’t have lost the North in the first place, and their actions in controlling the riots couldn’t be perceived as some sort of free speech and patriotism issue.

Not discussing immigration and working life means all these cheap little patriot weirdos get traction

itsgettingweird · 12/05/2025 16:10

Alexandra2001 · 12/05/2025 15:00

Public services didn't collapse when migration was around 200k per year.

If we'd never had left the EU migration would still be around this figure, your party gave us Brexit.

its also quite probable that x channel migration wouldn't be the issue it is now either... look at when exactly the numbers rose v quickly?

Yes the numbers tell a story.

It’s much harder to “stop the boats” than it was to hold Lorrie’s at a border and search them.

asylum seekers will find a way because they are desperate. It’s the system that allows the illegal gangs to play fast and loose with people’s lives. The gangs aren’t creating the problem we have of those needing asylum - they are capitalising on our inability to deal with to efficiently.

PandoraSocks · 12/05/2025 16:12

cardibach · 12/05/2025 15:12

I’m concerned about next year’s Senedd elections. I had decided to vote Plaid, which I’ve done before, but I’ll have to check now that it won’t split the vote and left Reform in. I’m in a pretty solid Labour constituency currently (Vaughan Gething’s) but I’m not sure anything is solid this time round. I align pretty closely with Plaid when I just look at policies, and I’m (increasingly) Indy curious.

Similar thoughts here, Cardi.

placemats · 12/05/2025 16:50

Have been working this morning and now watching Families Like Ours - a Danish drama series. When catastrophe happens, such as a flooding country and a weak economy, other countries will close their borders, though give time with strict stipulations regarding entry requirements.

Whilst Denmark is in the EU it doesn't have Euro currency. It's a bit scary watching it. Asylum could happen to anyone and a strong economy holds countries. Plus geology.

bombastix · 12/05/2025 16:57

You mean those Tory donors like Clearsprings who made a mint from renting out their hotels to the Home Office. Nice work for them and no incentive to speed matters up. All good money from the taxpayers extracted to private business.

dontcallmelen · 12/05/2025 17:11

bombastix · 12/05/2025 16:57

You mean those Tory donors like Clearsprings who made a mint from renting out their hotels to the Home Office. Nice work for them and no incentive to speed matters up. All good money from the taxpayers extracted to private business.

Like most things that have gone badly wrong in the U.K. always tracks back to privatisation, it never ever benefits anyone apart from the shareholders.

PickAChew · 12/05/2025 17:16

bombastix · 12/05/2025 15:56

Well I really think the “cheap wages, lots of migration” is about the Conservative Party writ. Exploitation for over a decade with flat wages, zero hours contracts and bigger all representation for working people. If I were a business person who wanted low labour costs I would have loved Tory policy, and it was the reason that Boris implemented it. It may have been half the reason for Brexit.

I would like Labour to start talking about working people, what they need and what makes a good country. All these allegations that they play on Reform’s ground is largely because they seem to have stopped bothering. My argument is if they’d kept that in focus they probably wouldn’t have lost the North in the first place, and their actions in controlling the riots couldn’t be perceived as some sort of free speech and patriotism issue.

Not discussing immigration and working life means all these cheap little patriot weirdos get traction

And yet in the 2019 general election we got the first real indication that the working classes were losing faith in labour when most of the red wall north east constituencies turned blue. They voted for the very people who had decimated local industry in the past and now allowed their current working conditions and security to be eroded as well as seeing to it that sure starts and libraries closed, moving them off tax credits onto UC and so on. The rhetoric at the time was still one of austerity and that labour would waste money.

Even when labour got those constituencies back, last year, Reform came a solid second. Even in the City of Durham which has been immune to the effects of these swings, due to a different overall demographic, Reform were still second.

Labour had plenty of warning that they had lost the formerly unquestioning loyalty of their core voters.

BBC News

City of Durham - General election results 2024

Get the latest news and election results in the 2024 General election from BBC News

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2024/uk/constituencies/E14001173

DuncinToffee · 12/05/2025 17:32

The Tories are saying that Labour is not going far enough as they propose to have an annual cap in immigration, and to exclude immigration cases from the Human Rights Act.

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