Page 24 | Thread 22 Starmer - Running up to local elections

BIossomtoes · 2025-04-21T21:39:19+00:00

Here we go. Previous thread. [[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5305431-thread-21-starmer-casting-nasturtiums?page=40&reply=143731831 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5305431-thread-21-starmer-casting-nasturtiums?page=40&reply=143731831]]

derxa · 02/05/2025 15:37

BIWI · 02/05/2025 15:29

But what does ‘racist’ mean?

Are you serious @derxa?

Edited to remove swearing and to try and remain vaguely respectful

Edited

On MN people were declared racist if they made a mild criticism of Meghan Markle.
I know racism when I hear and see it. I also know that some people are very careful with their words.

derxa · 02/05/2025 15:39

cardibach · 02/05/2025 15:31

I suspect she’s implying that said person is only called racist because she expressed concern about ‘undocumented young men’. Lots of Reform voters (I know you aren’t one - yet anyway - derxa) say that they get called racist for having ‘concerns’ about such things.

Show quote history

I will never vote Reform. I don’t trust Farage.

Notonthestairs · 02/05/2025 15:39

Ask yourself why this thread suddenly all about immigration and nothing else?

Reform have one (unworkable uncosted) policy which they have to keep in the headlines to avoid attention elsewhere -

Do they intend to cut taxes? Which taxes?
How do they expect tax cuts will impact public services?
What are their plans for social care? How are they going to staff it?
What are their plans for growth?
Do they acknowledge climate change?
Do they still support fracking?
How will they improve housing?
What will they do about security in Europe (and beyond)?

Will they continue to support Ukraine?
What will our relationship be with the EU?
What would they give for a US trade deal?
How do they square leaving the ECHR and the Good Friday Agreement? And what about the TA with the EU?
They want an insurance model for health - which version?
French? Dutch? etc And related to that - How much do those goverments spend on health per capita? - is it more or less than our Government spends now? -If it is more then will taxes actually need to rise? -How much will it cost the country to change our model of healthservice? - Will we need to borrow to do that?
If so how much will we need to borrow?

Reform trained the Conservatives to narrow their gaze, to focus solely on migration.

Farage has been in politics donkeys years. Nobody should pretend that he - or his donors - need time to decide policy. Its already there, he just hasn't developed a storyline to sell it yet.

Governing a country amounts to a lot more than immigration numbers.

DuncinToffee · 02/05/2025 15:39

Look at that pincer movement in Devon, the Conservative's controlled this council before and are now being eaten by the Liberal Democrats to the centre and Reform to their 'right', what's the platform that wins them both back?

https://bsky.app/profile/luketryl.bsky.social/post/3lo6y4s6pc22f

(Same pattern in other councils)

Luke Tryl (@luketryl.bsky.social)

Another way of looking at that deadly pincer movement facing the Conservatives - look at how they get squashed between Reform and the Lib Dems in Devon on this chart. [contains quote post or other embedded content]

https://bsky.app/profile/luketryl.bsky.social/post/3lo6y4s6pc22f

PandoraSocks · 02/05/2025 15:40

derxa · 02/05/2025 15:37

On MN people were declared racist if they made a mild criticism of Meghan Markle.
I know racism when I hear and see it. I also know that some people are very careful with their words.

Show quote history

Derxa, I don't call people I am fond of racists lightly. Trust me on this one.

2dogsandabudgie · 02/05/2025 15:40

Saucery · 02/05/2025 15:16

I actually feel a bit sick at the fact Lancashire has gone resoundingly Reform. And uncharacteristically sad for the Conservative candidate in my area who was closest in votes (by hundreds) to the faceless Reform bot who hid his address so we can’t see that he most likely doesn’t live anywhere near us. Jesus, what a sad, sad day for Lancashire. Four years is a long time for them to fuck up the County.

Did it not say his address on the voting slip. All our candidates had their addresses printed on there, all local people.

cardibach · 02/05/2025 15:41

derxa · 02/05/2025 15:37

On MN people were declared racist if they made a mild criticism of Meghan Markle.
I know racism when I hear and see it. I also know that some people are very careful with their words.

Show quote history

It isn’t the strength of the criticism which dictates whether it’s racist. It’s the reason. Someone could make a mild criticism borne of racism or conversely a massive one which is not racist at all.

PickAChew · 02/05/2025 15:45

2dogsandabudgie · 02/05/2025 15:40

Did it not say his address on the voting slip. All our candidates had their addresses printed on there, all local people.

Show quote history

Many of ours just said "address in Co Durham." that could mean someone in Barnard Castle standing for Peterlee.

Saucery · 02/05/2025 15:50

@2dogsandabudgie

Last year it was anyone who voted Conservatives who were insulted, now that Reform are gaining power it's anyone who votes for them who you now think are thick, racist twats
And I said that…….where? Be a bit odd if I did, as I have been a Conservative voter in the not too distant past (as regular posters on this thread know). My brother was a Conservative councillor once upon a time too. My parents are traditional Conservative voters until the last election.

Did it not say his address on the voting slip. All our candidates had their addresses printed on there, all local people
No. it just said “address in X”, X being nearest large town. As is the right of anyone standing, but why hide it? He’s not posted personally on local social media, it’s some faceless central Reform bloke who handles their social media. And I am damn sure he’s not been involved in any of the many local initiatives to make living here a pleasanter place.

itsgettingweird · 02/05/2025 15:55

MsJinks · 02/05/2025 13:48

I'm glad of this thread being balanced re immigration- some are dreadfully full of false facts and horrible ideas.
Thing is people fleeing their country are not going to stop - they are likely to increase if anything as climate change impacts and wars continue. A naive thought is there should be a fully global response to ensure everyone's safe living conditions- obviously that will never happen.
The only way to seek asylum in the U.K. is to arrive illegally and claim it - btw the asylum claim actually means they are not illegal immigrants - we are an island, lorry loads were effectively stopped, so boats are the only way right now and even if big gangs were stopped (as they should be) then people are desperate and creative and would continue to move countries. Not sure why some assume they should just stay home to die as they're an inconvenience to the U.K. but obviously a few people do - or are persuaded to think that way.
Thing is once they've arrived why can't we see them as people - whether they're genuine or not (breaking news that most are), even whether it causes issues re cost or not, they are still human beings. Trying to set fire to their living spaces last year made me feel quite sick. This is whipped up by the focus on small boats when actually you're pretty likely to have come across actual illegal migrants in your everyday life, overstayers are the biggest sector, but as they're not pointed out daily by certain media channels then they're treated normally most of the time. Though hatred spreads through to all sectors unfairly - My late mum's care agency manager, lovely lady, hid in her home for several days last year and ran out of milk partway through - I was ashamed to be honest.
All parties need to be honest about the facts of immigration and honest about how it is best addressed, or if it can be - none are really but definitely do not want an immigration system built on hatred - it makes us all poorer as a society.
If all immigrants disappeared overnight then there'd be a new group of people to blame by morning for the U.K. not being some Utopia. Othering people is not helping a cohesive society at all - feel like we are still pack animals in the wild sometimes.

Agree.

those boat crossings are fatal. There’s absolutely no guarantee of safety and they don’t care about safety.

Anyone doing the crossing feels risking death by drowning is a better option than staying in their own country.

These are desperate people. I don’t see why some people choose to be blind to this fact.

2dogsandabudgie · 02/05/2025 16:01

itsgettingweird · 02/05/2025 15:55

Agree.

those boat crossings are fatal. There’s absolutely no guarantee of safety and they don’t care about safety.

Anyone doing the crossing feels risking death by drowning is a better option than staying in their own country.

These are desperate people. I don’t see why some people choose to be blind to this fact.

Show quote history

They don't need to make the crossing though. They have arrived safely in Europe. They are no more in danger in France, Spain, Germany etc than they are in the UK.

itsgettingweird · 02/05/2025 16:01

Saucery · 02/05/2025 15:23

And I remember a Conservative MP who helped my family enormously. What’s your point? There’s always going to be decent outliers who you think would be better as Indeoendents.
The Labour and Conservative candidates live here, work here, make a real difference to the local area. I’ve already said upthread that it was a toss up between them and what decided me was the Conservative made some stupid lies up on his campaign leaflet about Labour governing the country. I could have voted for either and been perfectly happy with whoever won. They both work their arses off whether there’s an upcoming election or not.
Reform have been spamming FB with racist shite, had a stand in the middle of a major Easter event then whined about being moved on. They don’t represent me, they don’t care about Lancashire and right now I’m ashamed to be Lancastrian.

Show quote history

It’s true. Even Braverman does good for our local area.

She’s still nasty and racist. A fact that means I won’t vote for her because we have a Labour councillor nearby who has done loads for her ward and isn't racist either.

it’s not an either/ or.

Lots of individual people do good locally but their politics are not what I aspire too.

I laugh every time they mention Birmingham being a labour council. Mines Tory - yet they have made a lot of decisions lately that Braverman is (rightly) up in arms about. And she’s as Tory as they come!

itsgettingweird · 02/05/2025 16:03

2dogsandabudgie · 02/05/2025 16:01

They don't need to make the crossing though. They have arrived safely in Europe. They are no more in danger in France, Spain, Germany etc than they are in the UK.

Show quote history

We all need to take our fare share. To reach France they’ve often been through 3/4 counties already. If they could reach safety and then claim asylum and we took into account where people want to be it would be such a better system.

The issue is no one can claim asylum from abroad. They can’t all live in refugee camps on the boarders of their dangerous counties.

Saucery · 02/05/2025 16:04

Happy to add that I seem to be sharing a county with lazy fuckers who don’t appear to know what a fragile and hard won right voting is and couldn’t bother their arses to even lift a postal vote into the nearest post box. As well as aforementioned thick, racist twats. I think that evens the balance of my insults for the lurking pearl clutchers

cardibach · 02/05/2025 16:04

2dogsandabudgie · 02/05/2025 16:01

They don't need to make the crossing though. They have arrived safely in Europe. They are no more in danger in France, Spain, Germany etc than they are in the UK.

Show quote history

So because we are an island we shouldn’t take anyone?
it’s been discussed a lot why some (and it’s a tiny proportion) make the extra crossing to the U.K. It’s often about having some ability to speak English or having family or cultural ties here. It’s not about the ‘generosity’ of the way they are handled here, that’s for absolutely sure.

2dogsandabudgie · 02/05/2025 16:05

DuncinToffee · 02/05/2025 15:34

Reform UK now has control of seven councils:

Staffordshire
Nottinghamshire
Durham
Lancashire
Lincolnshire
Kent
Derbyshire

One of those Councils is mine. Interesting....

itsgettingweird · 02/05/2025 16:06

Notonthestairs · 02/05/2025 15:39

Ask yourself why this thread suddenly all about immigration and nothing else?

Reform have one (unworkable uncosted) policy which they have to keep in the headlines to avoid attention elsewhere -

Do they intend to cut taxes? Which taxes?
How do they expect tax cuts will impact public services?
What are their plans for social care? How are they going to staff it?
What are their plans for growth?
Do they acknowledge climate change?
Do they still support fracking?
How will they improve housing?
What will they do about security in Europe (and beyond)?

Will they continue to support Ukraine?
What will our relationship be with the EU?
What would they give for a US trade deal?
How do they square leaving the ECHR and the Good Friday Agreement? And what about the TA with the EU?
They want an insurance model for health - which version?
French? Dutch? etc And related to that - How much do those goverments spend on health per capita? - is it more or less than our Government spends now? -If it is more then will taxes actually need to rise? -How much will it cost the country to change our model of healthservice? - Will we need to borrow to do that?
If so how much will we need to borrow?

Reform trained the Conservatives to narrow their gaze, to focus solely on migration.

Farage has been in politics donkeys years. Nobody should pretend that he - or his donors - need time to decide policy. Its already there, he just hasn't developed a storyline to sell it yet.

Governing a country amounts to a lot more than immigration numbers.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Goldenbear · 02/05/2025 16:06

itsgettingweird · 02/05/2025 15:55

Agree.

those boat crossings are fatal. There’s absolutely no guarantee of safety and they don’t care about safety.

Anyone doing the crossing feels risking death by drowning is a better option than staying in their own country.

These are desperate people. I don’t see why some people choose to be blind to this fact.

Show quote history

Yes, it is shocking the way the people crossing are dehumanised by that hideous party. Such sensationalism, with the constant reference to the 'south coast' being overwhelmed, I live on the south coast and it has zero impact.

Saucery · 02/05/2025 16:06

cardibach · 02/05/2025 16:04

So because we are an island we shouldn’t take anyone?
it’s been discussed a lot why some (and it’s a tiny proportion) make the extra crossing to the U.K. It’s often about having some ability to speak English or having family or cultural ties here. It’s not about the ‘generosity’ of the way they are handled here, that’s for absolutely sure.

Show quote history

But never mind, cos by…..ooooh, let’s say December?……..Reform will have cleared all the hotels and HMOs out and women will be free to walk the streets unmolested…….or something.

DuncinToffee · 02/05/2025 16:06

2dogsandabudgie · 02/05/2025 16:01

They don't need to make the crossing though. They have arrived safely in Europe. They are no more in danger in France, Spain, Germany etc than they are in the UK.

Show quote history

Not again, do you really think they are making the crossing for fun rather than out of desperation?

Would you be happy with safe routes?

Evenstar · 02/05/2025 16:07

A few ideas of topics our new Reform councillors might like to hear about

Thread 22 Starmer - Running up to local elections

cardibach · 02/05/2025 16:10

DuncinToffee · 02/05/2025 16:06

Not again, do you really think they are making the crossing for fun rather than out of desperation?

Would you be happy with safe routes?

Show quote history

Quite. @2dogsandabudgie have you seen the poem ‘Home’ by Warsan Shire? This bit is pertinent:
“you have to understand,
that no one puts their children in a boat
unless the water is safer than the land”

The whole poem is here. I urge you to read it. https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/no-one-puts-their-children-in-a-boat-unless-the-wa/

"No one puts their children in a boat unless the water is safer than the land"

A poem about seeking asylum.

https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/no-one-puts-their-children-in-a-boat-unless-the-wa/

2dogsandabudgie · 02/05/2025 16:13

cardibach · 02/05/2025 16:04

So because we are an island we shouldn’t take anyone?
it’s been discussed a lot why some (and it’s a tiny proportion) make the extra crossing to the U.K. It’s often about having some ability to speak English or having family or cultural ties here. It’s not about the ‘generosity’ of the way they are handled here, that’s for absolutely sure.

Show quote history

I have never said we shouldn't take anyone. But nobody NEEDS to make the journey.
1,162 people have crossed in the last 5 days. That's a lot of people to suddenly find accommodation for.

cardibach · 02/05/2025 16:14

2dogsandabudgie · 02/05/2025 16:13

I have never said we shouldn't take anyone. But nobody NEEDS to make the journey.
1,162 people have crossed in the last 5 days. That's a lot of people to suddenly find accommodation for.

Show quote history

So why do you think they do it if it’s so unnecessary? Given it’s expensive and dangerous? Have you read the poem linked above?

2dogsandabudgie · 02/05/2025 16:14

cardibach · 02/05/2025 16:10

Quite. @2dogsandabudgie have you seen the poem ‘Home’ by Warsan Shire? This bit is pertinent:
“you have to understand,
that no one puts their children in a boat
unless the water is safer than the land”

The whole poem is here. I urge you to read it. https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/no-one-puts-their-children-in-a-boat-unless-the-wa/

Show quote history

What is unsafe about France, Spain, Germany etc?