Police arrest parents who slate school on class WhatsApp

[noblegiraffe]

A primary school sought advice from the police after '“a high volume of direct correspondence and public social media posts” that had become upsetting for staff, parents and governors.' and the police response was to send 6 officers to their house to arrest the couple making the posts and put them in a cell all day.

Although the couple sound like an absolute pain in the arse who should pack it in, 6 police officers seems like a teensy bit of overkill, particularly with the amount of crime currently going uninvestigated. But with schools faced with spiralling numbers of vexatious parental complaints, something needs to happen. I think some unions are starting to offer legal advice and template solicitor letters for this situation.

https://www.thetimes.com/article/d8c8566b-99b1-45c6-814b-008042d74a3a?shareToken=6deab807d148cf7695ed4d9d3664c51e

What do you mean by “verbally abusive”? As we’ve seen, some people on the thread claimed that someone simply sending multiple emails was “abusive”, when it may be entirely justified for all the reasons discussed earlier.

It seems hard to believe that 5-15% of parents are being violent or swearing at teachers as the PP claimed, otherwise presumably a very large number of parents would be banned from school property. Or, do you mean that someone is emailing and making complaints/ being critical of the school and you’re claiming that this is “abuse”, like the school in the article has done.

TheCastleDoesNotReply

Can you quote where I said "every school"?

Or that schools go out of their way to rectify issues with parents (often at the cost of their staff's mental health and well being) to maintain a working relationship with the parent.

In your post to zenactive at 23:12 last night you’d said that it will change from school to school but you believe 5-15% of parents are either violent, intimidating or swear at teachers, so I thought you meant that this was an average level across schools with most falling into this range?

That seems very high. For example, in a primary school with a two class intake (60 kids) that would mean between 3 and 9 parents for every school year who are violent to or swear at teachers, so between 21 and 63 parents at the school who behave like this.

But then there have been posts saying it’s incredibly rare for parents to be banned from school premises and they’ve only seen it happen a couple of times in long careers. Surely if violence/ intimidation of teachers was this prevalent with 21-63 parents behaving like this at a standard-sized primary, it would be a common occurrence for parents to be banned from the premises?

I was just trying to make sense of what you reported as it seems quite extreme and not something I’ve ever even heard of occurring at schools locally. And it would also make what the school did to the parents being discussed on this thread seem even more extreme if such behaviour is as common as you say given the school has never alleged that they were ever violent or threatening or swore at staff etc yet they were banned from the premises and per the reports this only applied to them and no other parents at the school.

There isn't anything to back it up, but what I was told appears to be being the message given out by some schools, is what I was told. I think the problem is that secularisation is pervasive - see the charter and how wide ranging it is - and so concerns raised about any teaching content might be reacted to under the new law/latest guidelines relating to secuarlity, is the worry. My original question to you (and other teachers) was would you welcome similar extensive protections given to teachers in the UK (not relating to secularisation but to teaching as a whole)?

I'm not sure that's necessary, certainly not legislation. Many schools have home-school agreements - maybe these could be worded in such a way to make consequences and the complaints procedure clear? I think one of the messages of this story is that people shouldn't assume that anything they type is private.

Also, who told you? Someone who actually knows a lot about the French education system?

TheCastleDoesNotReply

In your post to zenactive at 23:12 last night you’d said that it will change from school to school but you believe 5-15% of parents are either violent, intimidating or swear at teachers, so I thought you meant that this was an average level across schools with most falling into this range?

This is in schools that I have worked in.

That seems very high. For example, in a primary school with a two class intake (60 kids) that would mean between 3 and 9 parents for every school year who are violent to or swear at teachers, so between 21 and 63 parents at the school who behave like this.

You have chosen an extreme example and a primary school. (slight bias there in your choice) But what makes you think that 6 - 9 parents per year are not swearing and being abusive to teachers and other members of staff?

But then there have been posts saying it’s incredibly rare for parents to be banned from school premises and they’ve only seen it happen a couple of times in long careers. Surely if violence/ intimidation of teachers was this prevalent with 21-63 parents behaving like this at a standard-sized primary, it would be a common occurrence for parents to be banned from the premises?

It is rare for parents to get banned from the premises, and this is because schools GENERALLY bend over backwards to solve the issues that occur.

I was just trying to make sense of what you reported as it seems quite extreme and not something I’ve ever even heard of occurring at schools locally. And it would also make what the school did to the parents being discussed on this thread seem even more extreme if such behaviour is as common as you say given the school has never alleged that they were ever violent or threatening or swore at staff etc yet they were banned from the premises and per the reports this only applied to them and no other parents at the school.

I haven't "reported" anything, I gave an opinion that I ask asked for and just like yours it is anecdotal. That other teachers have agreed with the numbers seems to make no difference to you.

I don't know where you are (locally) but nationally it is being reported that pupil behaviour is getting worse. Very little is often reported about the behaviour of parents. We don't know exactly what the school has alleged or what evidence they put forward, because the school has not come forward with details, but this has been done to death.

But I would like to know what you actually class as abusive behaviour and how much of it school staff should suffer, because from your posts you seem quite happy for school staff to be treated like crap and have to suck up any abuse that put to them.

@FrippEnos I am sorry about delay in reply I haven't had a chance to come on MN since you posted this.

In relation to the research, I referred to child development research which is a broad and comprehensive body of peer reviewed research going back some 50 years and including more recently neuro research, which evidences and informed previous research (I will refer to as "CDR"). So what I said/meant was that CDR is quite different from everything you were referring to. The fads or personal theories you mentioned - some may have been informed in part by the CDR, or not, and may or may not have been put together by someone with experience or expertise in CDR.

I think that there needs to be comprehensive and nationwide changes to school management and teaching training devised or having input of people with adequate experience and expertise in relation to CDR so that would mean clinical psychologists or psychiatrists who specialise in this area. Not fads or theories which affect only bits and pieces and are randomly put in place. Competent, comprehensive and research informed policies put in place across the board would transform education and make things a lot easier for parents and children and teachers. Nothing to do with fads or trends.

So to explain more about CDR, giving a very rough summary. CDR will cover things like (these are just a few examples)

• how children perceive things
• how the brain processes things very differently when a child is 8 compared to when they are 14 for example
• what is happening in the teenage brain in terms of pruning and speed
• how children respond to punishment (not well)
• what prompts good and cooperative behaviour in children (same thing that motivates them to study and do well as it happens)
• what sort of environment would prevent lying (not all teens lie, contrary to myth)
• how best to motivate children to do well and how to bring up children who are self motivated responsible and fulfilliing their unique potential
• how to bully proof children and make it less likely that they could be manipulated, groomed by extreme groups, trafficked.

So it informs rather than dictates, and allows for the fact that all children are different, and it is clear about what has a positive effect and what does not though how training is given and how well teachers and others understand it is clearly vital. The vast majority of teachers and parents (and other professionals involved with children) have scant knowledge of CDR. Yet if it were included in teacher training (and training of other professionals including heads) it would make life much better and easier for children.

I will do a new post about the 5 - 15 percent.

sorry if any of the above is unclear because I have rushed, if anything doesn't make sense let me know.

In relation to the 5 - 15 percent I am not sure whether all the posters who responded realised that I had only referred to personal insults, swearing, violence. But in any event, to take the figure at the top of 15 percent, this means that it is accepted that 85 percent of parents are not behaving like this and are normal parents, reasonable, doing the best for their kids in the context of what is reasonable?

And if so, why then is it that when parents start threads on MN with a concern about something to do with a school they are bombarded with posts full of accusations none of which are related to what the poster has said, accusations about them and their parenting, accusations about their children (lying for example). Surely the assumption should be that they are from the 85 percent of normal parents? And their post should be taken at face value and they should be treated with a bit of respect? Out of all the teachers I have ever dealt with, around 65 percent have been amazing, literally amazing, around 7 percent okay and around 28 percent have been extremely difficult (putting it diplomatically as I don't want any fallout as per this thread subject matter) and so I can well believe that the posters who post are genuinely dealing with a difficult issue.

I can believe that the figure of 5 - 15 percent is possible though because if you look at the general population (and MN posts for that matter) there is a percentage of people who are abusive. But I only referred to objective things because school staff will not always know what constitutes abuse or harrassment (as we have seen with the case this thread refers to)

Some judicial guidance about what constitutes reasonable questions, concerns or valid criticisms vs harrassment, bullying (whether by parents or teachers) might help.

In relation to smartphones, a normal phone might be a lifeline for a teens but a smart phone is not necessary, can schools not ban smartphones from schools and say only basic phones are allowed? Confiscating them during the day seems fine but keeping them confiscated overnight or longer seems a bit bonkers though and school rules like this will contribute to problems.

I thought that there was a move to make it against the law for under 16s to have smart phones.

Someone who has worked in French schools. But not necessarily an expert on
French ed law or an expert on the system generally.

While I was digging around about this subject I found this discussion which is really interesting. Obviously it is just one point of view. In terms of the speaker's expertise, they teach at degree level in France. Some of the discussion is France specific, and i couldn't comment at all as I know little about it, but the bits about the serious drop in education standards, the damage done by the progressive trend against the need for education (since the 60s off and on) and about how a liberal sex education seems to be dominating things at the expense of basic education for children inappropriately, are all valid discussion points for the UK too I think.

For anyone whose french isn't fluent you can use the settings tool at the bottom right to get English subtitles which work really well as the speaker speaks very slowly and clearly (you can also use the settings tool to double the speed if it is too slow for you)

Sorry, what I meant was that this is interesting in relation to the crossover bits ie the bits which apply to the UK too and in the context of laws around not criticising teachers which may crossover to the UK at some point.

If that makes sense.

The other bits are only interesting if you happen to be interested in French politics and culture.

Well look how this ended

www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gz1qy30v5o

Yep, those of us who thought the police were overstepping have been confirmed by the police's own acknowledgement that they had no grounds for arrest. Free speech upheld.

Yep, boy was this an outrageous episode.

Clearly the parents are still arse holes and the school can't share its side of the story. 80 emails is harassment.

they probably are arseholes but it clearly WASN'T harassment given the whole story is about the police admitting they WRONGLY arrested them for that.

As always the real loser is the general public - the £20k paid out to them will be on top of the thousands of pounds it cost for their arrest, the investigation, specialist examination of their electronics, being held in custody, etc. All a complete waste of money that could have been spent on investigating or preventing actual crime.

I've been at the end of this 'parents are harassing us' nonsense by a school. 95% of my emails were emailing to say my child wouldn't be in that day due to anxiety caused by unmet send needs. And as that was a daily occurrence whilst we were trying to secure an EHCP and specialist placement it doesn't take long to rack up the emails. But no, it was us, we were anxious, harassing, demanding, blah blah blah yawn. What we ended up with was an EHCP, a specialist placement and several thousand pound payout from the LA after they were found by the ombudsman to have failed our child. But it's easier to blame parents than acknowledge that some schools are frankly just shit.

editingbto add the EHCP was secured after tribunal. So that was two independent bodies who found in our, the parents favour. I have no doubt these parents have also been targeted by a shitty school.

I agree. Arseholes they well may be, but they very clearly shouldn't have been arrested. They'd already taken their child out of the school and weren't going onto school grounds even before that(?).

How scared were staff about these people? Did they physically threaten them or even say anything stronger than calling someone a control freak? Secondary school teachers get called worse than that most days.

I have worked in schools for years, so I am usually team school, but this all sounds nuts.

You don’t get banned from the school premises for emailing that your kid won’t be in school.

No but I got accused of harassment, can you explain how emailing to say your child won't be in and why is harassment?

How do you get a decision about being banned from school grounds challenged by a fully independent body? So we can be sure that it was in fact reasonable and not just done out of bias and spite like the school going to the police for harassment was? I think we both know you can't and based on the unwarranted harassment accusations it's not unreasonable to assume this decision was also made unreasonably.

Even now the police have acknowledged there was nothing to arrest them for some people still won't be able to admit that some schools are just awful though.

True, but they were banned, then their kid effectively chucked out of school and then a week later the parents were arrested. He's a journalist and they were never charged with anything so I am guessing he wasn't going round issuing threats. Why were the school still so concerned? I've never come across anything like it.

The officer who decided this was worth investigating at all let alone arresting people in their homes needs their judgement seriously questioned.

what a waste of time and of course £20k of taxpayers’ money (which the wrongfully arrested people deserve)

Sounds like the sort of things care homes do - they can report families who raise concerns about their loved one's care to the police. This, however, is often a threat first mooted by the Council's Social Services by which point, having got them on board, the care home knows it can act with impunity.

But in that case what lies behind the scenes is that the care home has placed the elderly person on covert end-of-life care aka ending life care, done without the family's knowledge or permission, hence a son or daughter simply being unable to fathom why a parent isn't getting enough daily drink, or isn't being prescribed antibiotics when they are unwell etc

By getting them out of the way, off their turf, the care home can finish the job without impediment - that said, with the whole Covid ban they could do that anyway.

Schools are a bit like care homes in that sense; I mean if a bully drives another kid to distress or even suicide I'm not aware the school ever gets sued, does it? Unlike, say, in the workplace. But I thinks schools can get the police and social services onside to target anyone who is being a bit persistent with their objections.