Police arrest parents who slate school on class WhatsApp

[noblegiraffe]

A primary school sought advice from the police after '“a high volume of direct correspondence and public social media posts” that had become upsetting for staff, parents and governors.' and the police response was to send 6 officers to their house to arrest the couple making the posts and put them in a cell all day.

Although the couple sound like an absolute pain in the arse who should pack it in, 6 police officers seems like a teensy bit of overkill, particularly with the amount of crime currently going uninvestigated. But with schools faced with spiralling numbers of vexatious parental complaints, something needs to happen. I think some unions are starting to offer legal advice and template solicitor letters for this situation.

https://www.thetimes.com/article/d8c8566b-99b1-45c6-814b-008042d74a3a?shareToken=6deab807d148cf7695ed4d9d3664c51e

In my experience, the good and/or reasonable teachers - which are the majority - are very easy to communicate with, problems aired and solved, both working to the common goal re the child. It is the teachers and sometimes heads who are not good and/or reasonable who are difficult who cause problems for parents, and it is those who are more likely to escalate in the way we have seen in this thread, and cause a disproportionate amount of damage even though they are the minority. Is the problem.

And it is a significant problem. I am not sure what could realistically be done to improve things, as the negativity from some teachers is absolutely overwhelming. But what won't work is for teachers to be at one end antagonistic and parents at the other, with the children in the middle being the ones which suffer.

The behaviour of children in school is part to do with some parenting problems, part to do with over exposure to toxic and harmful ideas and images which is a lot to do with schools, as children whose parents are parenting well are being exposed to this at school via phones or discussion or shared information at school, not at home, and part to do with the fact that teaching in schools does not always follow child development research - eg age inappropriate stuff, inappropriate and constant petty punishment and part to do with the fact that some teachers should not be working with children - even if they are the minority, they cause a disproportionate amount of damage.

Most parents here are stressed out about problems within schools.

If you were being completely objective, do you think a fair part of the pressure of stress on teachers is to do with poor management, internal and external? It is not all the fault of parents and children?

I have mostly worked in the private sector, and the major difference I see - and this applies to public employees in schools as well as elsewhere - is that the public sector is far more patchy in terms of management at all levels. It is much, much easier to work in a large private sector organisation than a large public sector organisation. Much better managed, much better and stronger and directional HR, higher expectations on employees when it comes to management but equally higher levels of benefit and support.

The problem in the past has been that when the private sector has become "partnered" with the public sector to try to improve things, it has been exploited by the cynical money orientated as exposed by Private Eye to some extent. So knee jerk reaction in that direction wouldn't be any good either.

It has been quite hard to find links for this so I will try to summarise what I know (which is incomplete!). Basically, I was told a few month ago that a new law had come into force in France which prohibited parents from criticising teachers, and teachers were able to go directly to the police or the education authorities if they thought they were being harassed eg emails or if they thought a child had lied about them and the sanctions were severe...

I had a look and in fact what I found was not exactly as per the above - I found new legislation related to breaches of "secularisation" and risk of terrorism which stem from wanting to try to protect teachers from the sort of attack suffered by Samuel Paty. The best source of information about this on the government website - https://www.education.gouv.fr/la-laicite-l-ecole-12482. You can rightclick to translate most of it to English.

So from what I could see the new protections are related to breach of the secularisation laws, but they sit alongside legislation which protects children and which gives children rights (not all of this is shown in the link).

I get the impression from the various things I read that the law around secularisation and teaching is quite complex as is the juxtaposition of teachers' rights vs children's rights, but I might be wrong.

I want to make it clear that I do not know for sure if I am right about this, I have just googled in the same way you have, so there is not intention at all to spread misinformation, and if you find anything which contradicts the above, please say!

The pressure on teachers comes from many different areas, and I have said on many threads that some of it comes down to poor management, Lack of management training, poor people skills, nepotism, creating cliques that make implementing poor decisions easier. The list goes on.

The creation of MATs hasn't helped, and many MATs have founds ways to remove SEND (and other undesirable pupils) from their registers, in what I can only describe as cynical attempts to save money and put pressure on others schools and the parents that have to cope with moving their child to another school.

Going back to the thread and your reply to Hercisback1 In nearly 20 years of teaching I have only ever known teachers refuse to deal with parents when those parents have been abusive to the members of staff. This does not make them "not good and/or reasonable" or "difficult" it makes them teachers that have been harassed, threatened, intimidated, verbally abused and in some case physically assaulted and that is a significant problem. (and this doesn't even touch on the pupils that are violent and abusive).

You post about this being teachers negativity when the fact is that it is a reality in schools today.

You also post about toxic ideas and images, these do not originate in schools they come from pupils homes, and they are allowed to watch these by the parents and then pass them on to other pupils by phone etc.
I am all for pupils being able to remain in contact with parents but do children really need a £500 smart phone in school?

With regard to child development research, which would you like schools to follow? Any teacher will tell you that schools adopt and change which research they follow at the drop of a hat, depending in the whim of the HT and which ever SLT member is flavour of the day.

You have posted about "inappropriate and constant petty punishment" these again come from the management of the school. Most teachers will adapt around them, but in the end teachers are paid to follow the policies of the school, getting abusive with the teachers will never solve this problem as it needs to be taken up with the HT and the governors.

Finally yes there are some teachers that should not be working with children, but the same can be said of some parents for the disproportionate amount of damage that they cause. (which also loops back to the toxic ideas and images from earlier).

TLDR:- schools are a mess and parents and teachers need to work together.

Education needs a whole lot more than that!

Everyone agrees it needs proper funding. But saying that the only other thing it needs is children and families to ‘behave’ is so simplistic and misses a huge part of the problem which is that the whole system is antiquated and needs an overhaul for the 21st century. The system is clinging on to something that was designed for another era. It does not prepare young people for the modern world we live in. It merely drills them to pass exams and holds academic ability above all else. It puts far too much pressure on students which juts turns them off.

By saying families need to ‘behave’ passes the buck on a failing system singularly onto families. The system needs to take a look in the mirror and look at its own shortcomings and failures in this.

A lot of issues have come from the introduction of league tables. School management want their schools to look good and this pressure is then passed down to teachers and pupils.

100% agree. Then it creates a toxic competitive environment and turns some staff into horrible bosses/heads who will trample upon anyone adult or child to get what they want. Which circles us back to the original topic of this thread.

Its a balance between accountability and pressure.

The issue here appears to be a lack of accountability on the schools part.

There is a lack accountability in the whole system.

At the moment teachers are the ones that are being held accountable for all the wrongs of the system, the parents, the children and the school.

And this isn't some sort of martyrdom comment it is an unfortunate fact.

Sorry, I got an error message when I clicked on your link.

I don’t blame teachers any more than I blame parents. They are both victims of an unsuitable system/environment. That’s not to say teachers don’t get it in the neck (I quit teaching for partly this reason!) but the blame for failures is shared between teachers and families and the government and senior leaders like it that way. Keeps everyone distracted from the real issues.

I say, good for the school. This might stop parents complaining too much. I have friends who are teachers and they tell me the parents are the worst aspect of the job.

Try:
www.education.gouv.fr/la-laicite-l-ecole-12482

But what if there's just cause for complaint? Not all teachers are the perfect beings some on MN like to claim them to be.

@FrippEnos
In nearly 20 years of teaching I have only ever known teachers refuse to deal with parents when those parents have been abusive to the members of staff. This does not make them "not good and/or reasonable" or "difficult" it makes them teachers that have been harassed, threatened, intimidated, verbally abused and in some case physically assaulted and that is a significant problem. (and this doesn't even touch on the pupils that are violent and abusive).

Actually, what I was saying was that most teachers are good/reasonable, but some are not. And those who are not are not like that because of anything which has happened to them. In my personal experience, those who I would term difficult do not refuse to deal with parents, they are difficult in other ways, manage situations and communication badly, etc. So we are talking about two different things here. i was giving the perspective of the average parent in relation to the few difficult teachers, and you gave the perspective of the teacher about difficult parents. (I agree, difficult parents will also cause a disproportionate amount of damage too)

In relation to difficult parents I'd be really interested to know - what percentage of parents would you say are objectively abusive ie personal insults, swearing at teachers, violent? I mean, not an exact figure, just your perception?

Are you saying that teachers who have experienced abuse from some parents then refuse to deal with any parents in a cooperative way? I don't think you are, i am just checking.

You also post about toxic ideas and images, these do not originate in schools they come from pupils homes, and they are allowed to watch these by the parents and then pass them on to other pupils by phone etc.

They come from some pupil's homes. Probably not the majority of pupil's homes, though that will depend on area probably. Some parents do not buy their children smartphones and they monitor internet usage, and they then have to deal with the fall out of their child being exposed to horrific content at school. This is something schools need to put a stop to, whether the problem originated with some of the children or not, do you not agree?

With regard to child development research, which would you like schools to follow?
There is only one body of child development research, and it is longstanding and peer reviewed (no whims). If the head and SLT are switching around, it means they have no idea what the research says and how it should be implemented. Schools should be aware of the research and it should be part of teacher training.

You have posted about "inappropriate and constant petty punishment" these again come from the management of the school. Most teachers will adapt around them, but in the end teachers are paid to follow the policies of the school, getting abusive with the teachers will never solve this problem as it needs to be taken up with the HT and the governors.

I agree with you, where it is following policies. But there is discretion for teachers - parents will be aware of this as not all of their dc's teachers will issue sanctions to the same extent or in the same way for example.

zenactive

In relation to difficult parents I'd be really interested to know - what percentage of parents would you say are objectively abusive ie personal insults, swearing at teachers, violent? I mean, not an exact figure, just your perception?

It will change from school to school, 5-15% violence at the lower end, intimidation, swearing etc. at the higher end.

Are you saying that teachers who have experienced abuse from some parents then refuse to deal with any parents in a cooperative way? I don't think you are, i am just checking.

Not any parents, those that are abusive towards them. And they shouldn't/don't have too because the school should put a contact person in place.

They come from some pupil's homes. Probably not the majority of pupil's homes, though that will depend on area probably. Some parents do not buy their children smartphones and they monitor internet usage, and they then have to deal with the fall out of their child being exposed to horrific content at school. This is something schools need to put a stop to, whether the problem originated with some of the children or not, do you not agree?

Yes it is some pupils homes and not all. And schools do try to deal with it but then you run into those petty rules where schools try and confiscate those phones to the parents disgust. But it comes under safeguarding and is escalated quickly to the appropriate groups. where it often stalls.

There is only one body of child development research, and it is longstanding and peer reviewed (no whims). If the head and SLT are switching around, it means they have no idea what the research says and how it should be implemented. Schools should be aware of the research and it should be part of teacher training.

You will have to be clearer on what you are classing as child development research. I am talking about the ever changing instruction (Fads) in teaching, (Paul Dix, Rosenshine's principles, Bloom's etc). They are all based on child development research (cognitive, social/emotional, physical, Environmental, Brain and development disorders.)

Thank you. There doesn't seem to be anything to back up what you were told. The focus seems to be on secularism. I did find out a bit about the home-schooling issue - apparently the government initially wanted to ban it completely but now it's severely restricted. Again, this seems to be linked to the issues of secularism.

I didn’t say “another” regulator. I said a proper one, to replace OFSTED, that actually does the job. A significant minority of immoral school staff are very aware that they can break the law with impunity at present with pretty much zero consequences. This would not occur in any other sector or profession. Much as the teachers will hate the idea, it is absolutely essential and they will need to get used to the idea that if you break the law there will be severe personal and organisational consequences for this. This isn’t some outrageous idea, it’s how things function in literally any other profession: the norm. Then behaviour and standards will improve and people who break the law will be immediately suspended them struck off, and schools and Local Authorities levied with significant fines for every instance of breach. Very quickly you’d see relationships between school staff and parents improve because parents wouldn’t be forced to fight to enforce the law themselves which is an absurd situation that again exists in no other sector. School staff would also see their working environment improve because toxic people who feel it is fine to flout the law would swiftly be removed from management, or indeed any work in the sector at all. I can’t see any valid reason that school staff who do follow the law would object to having a proper regulator in place to remove those members of their profession who break it and bring them all into disrepute.

Sorry, have I understood this correctly? You’re saying that you think that 5-15% of parents are violent, intimidating to or swear at school staff?

Where on earth do you teach?!

That really isn’t normal at all.

Riiiight, so that means all parents who have to make a complaint are automatically wrong does it? Because you friend said some parents are difficult? 🤦🏻‍♀️

Where do you live where school staff are behaving unlawfully regularly? I ask as a teacher and a parent of a child with an EHCP.

I’ve taught in 3 different LEAs in the Midlands and I agree with the 5% - 15% figure. Abuse has become so normalised through email. I’m glad that we have mainly remote parents evenings because at least after 5 minutes if a parent is still shouting they’ll be cut off - does make the next appointment difficult though trying to compose yourself!

Another who has taught in multiple schools and 5-15% is my experience too.

Last school was nearer 10%, phone abuse was worse there.

Latest one is email bombardment with 3-4 high profile verbally abusive parents per year group.

madaboutpurple · Yesterday 15:20

I say, good for the school. This might stop parents complaining too much.

Good for the school for having parents arrested for having a minor gripe in private, despite having committed no crime? You're off your rocker.

It is specific schools with poor leadership that engage in the kinds of illegal behaviour and breaches of laws and regulations that I’ve mentioned. In most schools it wouldn’t happen, but there are very many schools scattered across the country in which it does, as evidenced by the large number of tribunal cases and schools and Local Authorities almost always being on the losing side. A proper regulator would remove these people who should not be running a school, then there wouldn’t be a need for individuals to constantly be making complaints/ taking cases to tribunals.

It’s very different to say some schools have bad apples in their leadership which need throwing out so they don’t rot the whole school, to the PP stating that 5-15% of parents in every school are violent or swear at teachers. I’ve only ever heard of one such incident locally where I live and it was actually two parents being violent to each other, not a teacher!