Has No one Noticed the Link...?

[AndSoFinally]

A Million threads on here about the planned cuts to disability benefits

Is no one else slightly concerned about the concurrent discussions about the Assisted Dying Bill? Does this not seem like the beginnings of a dystopian PD James novel?

I haven't seen any other thread mention this but I'm quite concerned about the direction of travel here

There's an ongoing nutty conspiracy theory that Finland doesn't actually exist and that this 'imaginary' country has just been invented by those in power for some kind of nefarious means and the rest of the world has been lied to.

By extension, when people are outright denying the clear evidenced reports of what has actually happened in other countries with laws (and consequences) similar to what we are proposing - western democracies at that - I can only assume that they must not believe that those countries actually exist and are just another made-up lie to deceive us all.

Either that or they're of the school that 'these things never ever happen... until they do'.

Saying that people with severe mental health problems have asked for assisted dying - which also raises the question of how are they aware that it could be a possibility - is no justification whatsoever.

If a 4-stone adult with anorexia knew of the existence of weight-loss pills, she would probably ask for them, maybe persistently. Any doctor who would actually prescribe them for her should be struck off at best and maybe even face criminal charges.

Is assisted dying perfect and painless?
Given the issues with the death penalty in America, they don't seem to get it right, people appear to be dying in pain.
Do they use different drugs?

I don't think there is a link. I think the importance of assisted dying is that ability to keep people alive has exceeded the point for some of life being enjoyable. I hate the idea of ending up bedbound in a simple room barely seeing anyone. We will find more and more ways to keep people alive so there needs to be the introduction of some kind of choice.

Assisted dying is for terminally ill only.

No,as not like bars can't be swiftly lowered once principles have been set 🤔

It's completely different. The people will the compassion to create a "good" execution don't work in executions that is why they have so many problems getting drugs. We are able to put animals to sleep in a painless way in their thousands everyday.

Unfortunately, you're wrong. We're being told that in future PIP will only go to the truly, genuinely disabled, and anyone who has a claim rejected is not significantly disabled. However, that is based on a purely political and ideological definition of disability and when that's taken into account your argument fails. There will be many people with disabilities impacting their lives who won't be covered by PIP criteria, and many of them will become sicker and more profoundly disabled through pressures of benefits conditionality, neglect and poverty. As a result some will move closer to the criteria for assisted dying.

So you'd rather they just had the choice of carrying on feeling worthless, a burden and miserable for the rest of their lives - or commit suicide.

Well no, I'd rather people weren't made to feel worthless in the first place so that suicide didn't feel like a good option!

So instead of first class palliative care and creating a society that doesn’t regard disabled or terminally ill people as worthless - we should kill them instead?

And you can’t see that going wrong at all?

Well - you do you, I guess.

The Netherlands has an admirable view that people's decisions should be respected.

It's a choice between an arrogant and interfering view that someone who is heading towards dementia or with a severe and intractable mental illness should not be listened to

V

The fact that sometimes someone who is prevented from assisted euthanasia changes their minds later.

There is no perfect solution.
Either you force suffering people to carry on in pain and despair, or you run the risk that some would have changed their mind later.

I prefer the Dutch view that stated wishes should be respected, while also acknowledging that some medical professionals will not want to administer medicine that leads to death.

There is infinitely more respect and dignity in the Dutch approach, which also expects people to take responsibility for themselves and their own decisions while providing superb support for people who do not wish to step out of life, however painful it is.

This is why I don’t think the UK is ready for assisted dying.
Our mental health support is truly rubbish, from an early age if children are struggling they have one option - CAMHS and its regional subsidiaries. It’s not fit for purpose. As an adult, services aren’t much better unless you can afford to pay for it.
The NHS is crumbling so people’s experiences of illness and death are often not great.

I had awful mental health issues and was convinced I was absolutely of sound mind. It’s not until after I found something that worked that I realised how disordered my thinking had been for years (although thankfully I wasn’t suicidal). Whilst I’m sure someone can believe they are thinking straight and can be offended that others disagree with them, having experienced similar myself I don’t believe anyone with mental illness should be considered sound enough to make that decision, particularly in a country with poor healthcare.

This is an interesting thread.

x.com/ddhitchens/status/1886340523037729242

That’s excellent!

I absolutely agree that the state of the MH system (and the social-care system that would help children early enough to stop many many mental illnesses developing is parlous. Plus the whole aim of the disability support system is to get as many people off it as possible, no matter whether they need support or not. That's a bloody poor indicator for future application of an assisted-dying law and that in itself should give anyone very long pause for thought over assisted dying in the UK.

But to say that anyone with a mental illness should not be considered sound enough to make the decision is, I'm afraid, cruel and very patronising. It's the same as saying 'you have a mental illness therefore nothing you say should be counted'. There are people who are so very badly damaged with no hope of healing that the only graceful and compassionate way to support them is to allow them, as with others, a certain and effective way out of life. That may not have been the case for you, but it is the case for others. You do not have the right to generalise from your case to make a decision for everyone.

Yes, some people will be able to unexpectedly recover. Others will not, and by removing the possibility of stepping out of life, it is condemning them to a lifetime of sometimes unbearable pain. The results of someone trying to commit suicide, failing and having long term physical damage can be just appalling.

At Dignitas it takes months to arrange an assisted death for mental illness and it's only if it's intractable, long term and you have three separate psychiatric reports, one from your local area and two from Dignitas itself, several months apart. That seems an effective way of doing it to me.

The biggest problem with assisted dying in the UK is the lack of care generally for vulnerable people. It's sad and frustrating to see that this is what the UK overall voted for.