7.4 million people claim some form of disability or incapacity benefits

[MidnightPatrol]

Given the various back and forth of discussion on the reduction in disability and incapacity benefits, not much data on the debate has been shared - it’s a mainly emotional debate.

So for context, the figures:

• 7.4 million people claim sickness benefits of some kind
• The total number of claimants has increased by a third in five years (up 1.8 million)
• 1 in 10 working age adults claims, and 1 in 12 school aged children
• 1.2 million people aged under 25 claim sickness benefits, a rise of two thirds in 5 years - 1 in 15 claiming something
• 4 million adults claim sickness benefit of some kind, up from 2.8 million in 2019. Two thirds of that increase is people under 50.
• 2.5 million people claim UC health benefits, up 500k people this year alone - in 2019 less than 500k people claimed this
• 1.8 million have no requirement to look for work
• Sickness benefits for working age adults are expected to cost £70b by 2030 - a third of the cost of the NHS

What's your point?

And the more people claiming, the more people think well why on earth am I working or only getting basic UC so amp up their symptoms of depression/adhd/fibro as making a few doctors appointments is a lot easier than working a full 40 hour week.

The annoying thing is that my family friend who is wheelchair bound with severe physical disabilities and needs full time care has to go through the same rigmarole to get his PIP as those who are making up crap/exaggerating. Why can't the doctors tick a box for people who clearly cannot work due to lifelong medical conditions.

To think about the challenge in terms of objective data, rather than emotion.

Sickness benefits for working age adults are expected to cost £70b by 2030

Well it's clearly not sustainable to have such a significant proportion not contributing to the economy/society and costing taxpayers so much. If numbers are increasing we need to look at why and what can be done about it. Whether that's better services and support or stricter conditions for claiming.

What are the stats on the number of people on a disability, sickness or incapacity benefit who are currently waiting for treatment, or who are having unsatisfactory treatment, on the NHS (eg being ‘seen’ by a doctor, physio or therapist but getting no better, deteriorating or being turned down for / don’t qualify for a particular treatment)?

Also, is there double counting of claimants who have, say, a PIP award and an open UC claim?

@icelolly12 the government’s own statistics put the PIP fraud rate at nearly 0%, given the amount of evidence required as well as -as you rightly acknowledge - the stringent assessment process involved.

Here is some data to add.

DLA middle rate care is £72.65 per week. That's what DC gets.

DC has to use nappies and pads, you get 5 per day on the NHS. Either/or
They go through at least 12 if not 15.

I pay £82 per week JUST on continence products.

Never mind the multiple changes of clothes, 2 wet beds a night, hundreds of days in hospital. 30 plus operations.

We are money down. Doing something wrong here obviously. Could you ask your overmaster what it is so we can be bashed some more please?

1.8 million with no requirement to look for work seems much lower than I expected. I was getting the impression half of working age adults had no work requirement from the debate.

You know that you are talking about actual human beings?

Not just numbers on a spreadsheet?

These disabled and/or sick human beings have the right to live with dignity and receive the support they need to remain as independent as they can be.

That it’s a staggeringly unbelievably large amount of people that seem to need state aid?
The numbers are utterly mind blowing to those that just go to work every single and pay the taxes that fund it.

@sometimesmovingforwards 'to those that just go to work every single and pay the taxes that fund it.'

I work, pay tax and I get PIP.

PIP is not an out of work benefit.

It's already clear that people can't look at stats objectively. It's rare that I see people say they don't believe in supporting those that need it, so there's no need to take what's intended to be an objective discussion personally.

Ultimately IF there are people who shouldn't be supported for whatever reason that benefits everyone - less of an overall cost and more to be spread amongst those that do need support.

Interesting stats OP

You can work and claim pip @sometimesmovingforwards it's not an out of work benefit.

• 7.4 million people claim sickness benefits of some kind
How many of these also work?

• The total number of claimants has increased by a third in five years (up 1.8 million)
How many of these also work?

• 1 in 10 working age adults claims, and 1 in 12 school aged children
How many of the adults also work?

• 1.2 million people aged under 25 claim sickness benefits, a rise of two thirds in 5 years - 1 in 15 claiming something
How many also work?

• 4 million adults claim sickness benefit of some kind, up from 2.8 million in 2019. Two thirds of that increase is people under 50.
How many also work?

• 2.5 million people claim UC health benefits, up 500k people this year alone - in 2019 less than 500k people claimed this
This is surely due to people being transferred from old style benefits onto UC it was always going to increase. You can also claim UC and work.

• Sickness benefits for working age adults are expected to cost £70b by 2030 - a third of the cost of the NHS
Working age adults can work and also claim sickness benefits. @MidnightPatrol

I don't think the fact that we are talking about actual human beings is lost on anyone. Multi faceted humans that are fundamentally self orientated and capable of exploiting an opportunity where we see one. It is a fundamental element of human nature that has allowed our species to dominate the planet.

Of course there are absolutely people that are too sick or disabled to work. There is also a massive grey area where I think most of the population exists where we aren't in tip top health and have various struggles with our mental and physical health. Lots of people make a judgement that the difficulty and hardship of working simply isn't worth it if they can lean into these difficulties and end up better off on benefits. I'm not saying that their ailments are completely manufactured but ultimately we all know that the grey area exists because many of us live in ourselves. You have a choice each morning whether to push through or give in. Too many people are giving in and it's making the whole system unaffordable and unsustainable.

Well that just tells me that we are a sick nation and we need to look at the causes and improve the nhs. Only then will things improve if the root cause is identified and people helped with efficient and high quality healthcare !

someone posted on another thread that she managed the condition she had by working part time and claiming tax credits without claiming pip. Tax credits had no hours work requirement. When universal credit was introduced she would have had to work full time so she had to claim pip so that she could continue to manage her condition by working part time. I’m guessing this is one of the reasons for an increase- these people were always there but not in the disability numbers.

we also have the retirement age gone up from 60/65 to 67 and people are more likely to develop conditions later in life, pip can’t be claimed once retired so retirement age increasing people more years when they can claim. I understand much of the increase is in younger so this won’t be main reason but will have still added to numbers

A tenth of working age adults claiming is a higher percentage than I was expecting. A tenth of my DD’s year group (she is now in 20s) at school were not in such need or likely to be in such need when she was at school. Yes I appreciate sample size is small.

The DWP have absolutely no idea about the amount of fraud associated with disability benefits. None! It's not like Child Benefit when you can easily check people's earnings and if a child exists. How do you go about proving someone is lying about how their disability impacts them? You would need some hugely expensive surveillance undertaken on each claimant to prove that they were over exaggerating and actually were capable of doing things that they claim they weren't capable of. This would be completely impractical and be far too resource intensive.

I detest people using the 0% fraud figure as if it definitive proof that people aren't defrauding the system when in fact it just proves that DWP have absolutely no idea about the level of fraud going on.

Here's another stat for you from the DWP's own data.
PIP fraud has dropped from 0.2% to 0.0%
70% of DWP's refusal decisions are overturned at tribunal.

So if anything the government is not paying enough on PIP.

Wonder if perhaps the issue might be:
Inadequate social care spending
Massive NHS waiting lists
A total lack of mental health services - people who have attempted suicide are still on the waiting lists.

If you're really interested in this debate how about looking at the % of households in poverty that include a disabled person.

7 in 10 low-income households with a disabled person went without essentials between November 2022 and May 2023. FYI essentials are things like food.

Then ask yourself if that money would be better spent on weapons.

Isn’t it the case that rates of cancer and heart disease have risen in the younger population as well? This all points to an organic cause not a sudden rise in less resilience and more benefit fraud.

I think Covid has some bearing on these stats, there are people with Long Covid for instance, plus an ageing population. I claim PIP for a spinal condition; I have scoliosis and spinal arthritis. I'm nearly 60, I worked since I was 17, but my scoliosis became more painful as I aged, I wasn't able to have an operation to correct the curvature. It impacts my lungs and digestion. PIP has been a lifeline for me now, as I've had to give up work but don't get my pension for another 7 years. It is an in -work benefit though, so disabled people who are able to can work as well. It helps with the extra costs of being disabled.

Have you got first hand experience of the PIP process? It's horrendous

I agree re covid.

Agreed.

It’s interesting on MN if you allege anything someone will always pop up asking for evidence eg official stats or a peer reviewed study and yet on all these benefit threads we have the PIP fraud rates from the DWP themselves and posters saying ‘but it might be more it might be wrong etc etc ‘ 🤦

It's almost like there was a global pandemic that left debilitating physical and mental health conditions in its wake.....

Fix the NHS! If people are sick, get them well