Thread 19 Starmer - A Coalition of the Willing

[DuncinToffee]

.https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5276594-thread-18-starmer-all-sides-of-the-house-agree-apart-from-the-trump-bootlickers?page=40&reply=142583752

previous thread

Although I support increasing our defences along with other parts of Europe etc. I do have a little niggling feeling of unease that I can't shift.

As Jane says, military conflict or even just preparing for it can help boost ailing economies. If all this had happened when times were better would the current response across Europe be the same?

Am I being a bit tin foil hat-y?

I don’t think his point as party political, was it? More pro Britain, anti people who insult Britain. War is inherently political, but he wasn’t using the soldiers to bolster himself or his party.

It’s possible it wouldn’t have been as enthusiastically received in some quarters, but there's no conspiracy here. Putin’s advance has to be stopped. Ukraine is a better place to do it than what might come after (as pointed out by Rory Stewart on The Rest Is Politics this week). The economic boost is a (probably welcomed by politicians) side effect.

The last time we spent big(ish) on defence was during the Afghanistan and Iraq wars and they did happen during a time of comparative economic good times (re the 2008 crash). I do think the Iraq war in particular had an ulterior motive (not WMD). And I think Tony Blair wanted to look like a "wartime leader". But the economy itself isn't a big motivation all the time if you look at historical wars. If anything, I think the struggles etc of trying to deal with Covid and the issues afterwards meant discussions about defence spending were kicked down the road. So its the opposite if anything.
I do think that the defence spending has the potential to boost the economy which in itself isn't a bad thing. Cutting spending in other areas to fund it (which the conversation is drifting towards) actually will reduce this effect though because fixing potholes/building houses also creates jobs. So does giving benefits money even if the recipients spend it down the pub. So if the only motivation was boosting the economy that's a bit counterproductive because they are discussing removing economic boosts in one area to fund economic boosts in another.

I am normally quite cynical. e.g. I think Boris Johnson had his own selfish reasons for supporting Ukraine but it was still the right thing to do. Blair did the wrong thing for the wrong reasons. Johnson did the right thing for the wrong reasons. Some ministers might be looking at the defence spending as a potential opportunity to platform policies they want to do anyway or just look like statesmen. That's politics. I still think spending more on defence is a good idea though.

I agree with all of the above, I think!

Btw I didn't mean to suggest that the only motivation is to boost economies. I don't think that at all, but more alone the lines of what cardibach says: "It’s possible it wouldn’t have been as enthusiastically received in some quarters".

I’m just trying to do today’s puzzle and now that’s the only word I can see…

A proportion of any defence spending has to go on infrastructure. It's fuck all use having 250,000 troops if as they leave the camp the first truck gets lost down a pothole.

No use having 250,000 troops if they all catch dysentery from shitty water.

No use having 250,000 troops if they have to train by candle light
And so on.

Fund managers have said that Trump’s Make America Great Again agenda has instead unleashed a Make Europe Great Again trade that is reordering global financial markets.

https://bsky.app/profile/financialtimes.com/post/3ljphmmulns2n

All the US commentators I follow are generally lumping the UK in with the EU when it comes to their reporting.

Interesting polling on European attitudes towards Trump and if he is a danger to the world
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/mar/06/donald-trump-threat-to-peace-ukraine-talks-survey-western-europeans

I agree, and this includes things such as adequate housing and care for when someone leaves the armed forces.

It wasn't political posturing! I'm surprised you weren't more offended by Vance's total contempt towards our armed forces than Starmer paying tribute respectfully.

I can see the argument for increased spending on defence being an economic stimulus, but I rather doubt it.

The government will have to find the money from somewhere and that ‘somewhere’ will cause a lot of pain in cuts or higher taxes. I doubt the markets would see that as positive. (I don’t believe income from frozen Russian assets will scratch the surface; the assets themselves might.)

The likelihood is that boosting our and other European defence spending will not be enough to make any real difference. And that’s without considering the effectiveness of the US v European weaponry. There’s a lot of gesturing going on in Europe: no US back up, no action.

None if this means we shouldn’t ramp up defence. We should. But we’ll be trading welfare spending for it.

None if this means we shouldn’t ramp up defence. We should. But we’ll be trading welfare spending for it.

There does come a point at which you need a country worth fighting for.

About 20 countries could join Ukraine coalition, UK says

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2017v5ngxpo

That is my concern. But also, if defense spending does boost the economy and people see rich people getting richer (not even profiteering/immoral behaviour but people with the money to have invested significantly in UK defense firms are already doing well. People with businesses adjacent to defense will do well) while there lives get worse/benefits are slashed there will be resentment. And worse case scenario, that leads to a populist party being elected who sides with Russia anyway. I really hope they make sure any welfare cuts are at least matched by higher taxes on those who can afford it. Its not about punishing the rich but you can't let the gap between rich and poor grow much wider without serious issues. I know too much debt is bad but borrowing more would actually be better than that.

There are a lot of moving parts here. And they are all entwined. So looking at what seems completely unrelated can actually lead back to the centre.

One thing that seems to be happening is a dawning realisation amongst the wealthy that it matters not a jot how rich you are when the country gets invaded. In fact being rich might actually be a Bad Thing.

This is already causing a split between the cosplaying fascists and the real fascists (as per 1939 in Britain). That in turn will drive the media. Already we have seen uncharacteristic Mail and Express headlines.

No amount of my excoriating prose could better Kipling here:

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!

I've found you again.

Little Tennyson brought a dead bird in. He was unimpressed at being told off.

Looking at crazy stuff happening in other countries (French Revolution, rise of fascism/communism in Europe) and going "oh shit, we don't want that to happen here, better sort things out" is actually a proud British tradition. I hope we manage it this time as well.

This is the MOST DELICIOUSLY EMBARRASSING THING you will see all week, if not all month.

Richard Tice car crash in Scotland. He doesn't know the full names of the two Reform UK defectors or which council they are from.

It truly deserves to go viral.

bsky.app/profile/sturdyalex.bsky.social/post/3ljplz6jr4s2r

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/ill-hold-it-but-i-wont-eat-it-reform-uks-richard-tices-chaotic-glasgow-chippy-visit-5021524

Tice is a total embarrassment just by existing.

Why is it that cats who kill birds always look so sweet?

If the cat will accept a collar, that could be the answer. The cat my family had when I was young did not, as a result my entire knowledge of birds was from her 'offerings'.

Little Tennyson made it abundantly clear at 7 weeks old that he was not engaging with collars. 🙄

Details, details. Why should he care who their candidates are. Not terribly impressed by the refusal to eat the fish and chips though - what a waste.

Quite amused by Lowe throwing shade on Farage's capabilities as a leader.

All those giant egos and disparate business interests battling with one another.