Can we talk about colourblind casting...

[CurlewKate]

...without the thread descending into a woke/anti-woke stramash?

Obviously it's a great advance that black actors now have access to many more parts than they did- and obviously in most cases it makes absolutely no difference to the play, show, whatever. But I was watching Shardlake,and it struck me that it was impossible that the Abbot of a 16th century monastery in rural England would be black. And that casting black actors in positions of power and influence might well give viewers a completely unrealistic idea of the status of black people in British history, and actually gloss over their struggles. So stylised historical figures, as in Shakespeare where we all know there's an element of fantasy (I recently saw a colourblind Coriolanus that was brilliant),no issue at all, of course. But historical dramas that are trying to represent life in the past roughly as it was-maybe actually unhelpful?

Incidentally, I know that one of the main characters in the Shardlake books is black. But he has a detailed backstory, and the discrimination he faced is part of his life.

But have white people ever played a pivotal black role such as Rosa parks or Martin Luther king? And will they? Fictional characters aside what about colourblind casting of real people?

What I don't like is when a non white person is cast in a drama set in the 60s/70s, and they're immediately socially acceptable. That's twisting history, and minimising struggles. Like the episodes with openly gay people being accepted. It didn't happen. As long as they are faithful to the era, it's a good thing.
However, it would be even better if writers, and those who commission writing, could take steps to include non white characters etc. in good quality work.

And Astrid isn’t even in the books!

I would rather see screenwriters tell black stories and cast black actors. I’m lazy and I don’t know any African history, I have no idea what black folk across the globe were getting up 300 years ago, but I’d watch it on telly if someone dramatised it. I find it hard to believe that writers can’t find any material that tells black people’s stories. I know a bunch of black South Africans, their family is spread across two continents and believe me you could get a friggin mini series out of their stories

But life isn't colourblind so why should fictional life be? It's weird to somehow pretend that skin colour isn't relevant and doesn't have any impact on someone's life - its not just the way we look (although that in itself affects the way we go through life and others interact with us) but our family history, our background, our culture.

I think the overall verismilitude of the performance is relevant

E.g. fantasy dramas - if you can have dragons you can have black people! Particularly if it actually provides context to the story - e.g. it makes sense in GOT/HOTD that the Velaryon and dornish characters have different skin tones, it would be strange if one random member of the starks were black or Asian without any explanation.

Same with plays and musicals - you are already suspending disbelief that a cardboard background is actually a city and people are bursting into song so the colour of peoples skin (or even their gender) is all part of that

With Bridgerton etc the music, dialogue and other stylistic choices make it clear its not attempting to be an authentic replication of the early 19th century, and, again, the creators have provided an in-universe explanation of why there are more people of colour.

Then of course there are all the historical dramas where multiple cultures are historically accurate- not the one in a million chance of having a black bishop in medieval England but ancient rome, egypt, 19th century new york, whatever...

So there are lots of ways casting can be more diverse, without even mentioning the most obvious - historical dramas from/set in countries with a majority non white population (which would be great similarly because its something different - do we really need yet another Jane austen or dickens drama? When we can have a shogun)

But if you are trying to present as historically accurate a film as possible then its doing a completely disservice to everyone - the actor, the audience and the real people who lived in that time to just cast a Asian actor and pretend nobody will nonotice, when really their race would have informed everything about their life. Its actually more racist to just whitewash history and pretend racism never existed as it suggests people were making a big fuss about nothing.

And of course if you are representing a real person they should be of the same physical appearance (unless an obvious stylistic choices e.g. cate blanchett as one of the many bob dylans within the same film). That's not just skin colour but everything else, including gender. If you cast a man as Elizabeth 1 it underrmines the struggles she faced as a ruling queen. A 30 year old Anne Frank would negate the veracity and tragedy of the story of a girl growing into adulthood. A Black Anne bolyen would have had a completely different life experience than a white one.

But families involving different ethnic backgrounds exist…?

Yes. I particularly like the female French police officer in Astrid: Murder in Paris. She is always snacking, middle aged, not thin and generally DGAF. I love her.
Edited to add
And rather scruffy for a Parisian!

Jesus, several times, to the point that some people actually believe Jesus was a white man.

@SoapySponge St Maurice was a soldier in the Roman Army, which was famously cosmopolitan. Not the Abbot of a 16th century priory in rural England.

Previous posters are having a sensitive nuanced discussion, and you come crashing in with this?

Of course - but portraying a black father to Benedict Cumberbatch raised questions not covered within the text or play.

I wonder if we might see more TV dramas featuring the black Tudors we know about. Even the small number we're aware of, there'd be some quite rich stories there.

It doesn’t bother me at all why would it?

Thanks Kate, that's my point exactly.

Why does it need to be?

Most multiracial families don’t talk about or address the fact that they are multiracial or why on a daily basis. So why would a fictional multiracial family need to address that in a play or a movie about an entirely different plot?

I did find it slighltly disconcerting in Hamilton. Try to stick to the truth or say it is fiction.

Yes but you know thats nothing to do with white actors dont you

Christianity (clue is in the name) didnt really take off in ME Jewish countries and obviously wasnt the religion of choice for those who converted from a myriad of belief systems to Islam in the ME

Christianity was adopted by the western and eastern orthodox churches and their art was simply representatives of their population, usually white, sometimes dark or Greek looking but still white and often blond and white depending on what church the art was for.

There are lots of black representations of Jesus in Ethiopia/Eritrea, coptic populations in north Africa but its not as much because its a small population of followers than the rest of the Christian world.

There should be more focus on historical dramas regarding non white people to create opportunities rather than shoe horning actors in for the sake of it. I knew nothing about Harriet Tubman until I watched Harriet which was amazing film and showed a truly extraordinary woman. It’s getting better with films such as Hidden Figures but could be much more investment and thought into what’s being made.

Totally agree with this. And someone whose race is out of place can be distracting, it doesn't make you racist. As the original OP alluded to having people of colour in positions of power will give an unrealistic view of black history to the uneducated.

Wicked Little Letters which is based on a true story based in the 1920s. One of the main characters is the first ever Policewoman in Sussex Police. For some bizarre reason they decided to cast an actress of Asian origin. The real policewoman was called Gladys Moss. All the way through characters commented on the fact that they'd never seen a Policewoman before, how odd it was etc etc even including a few derogatory comments. However not one person mentioned her colour or ethnicity. It was really distracting. Almost like the emperors new clothes where everyone keeps up the pretence and you can see the truth. I even ended up googling Gladys Moss on the vague off chance she was of Asian origin but no, totally white. It just seemed pointless.

Now the main protagonist in that film was shown as having a black/husband/parter but as she was shown as an outcast/rebel it was less of an issue because it fit with her rebel persona.

To be fair the rapping wasn't historically accurate either. 😀

@MrsFinkelstein You seem to think that everyone born in Africa is/was black.

Tbf a lot of people don’t think Heaus was real. I would class that as a story so it doesn’t matter who plays him

If it makes no difference to the story then I don't have an issue with it. If it's completely historically impossible (the example given by OP of a 16th century Abbott), or you're changing the race of a real person (I heard the new Evita is going to be black), then yes it's a problem.

If you want roles for black people, write them. Don't shoehorn them in.

it's confusing as hell when they cast a black child with white parents and there's zero mention of whether the child has been adopted. It's a big hole in the narrative and very befuddling. It feels very grating that we're supposed not to
notice. Or summat.

Its due to racists successfully white washing history, and a significant number of people still wanting to maintain a whitewash.