Page 27 | Can we talk about colourblind casting...

CurlewKate · 2025-02-16T08:55:13+00:00

...without the thread descending into a woke/anti-woke stramash? Obviously it's a great advance that black actors now have access to many more parts than they did- and obviously in most cases it makes absolutely no difference to the play, show, whatever. But I was watching Shardlake,and it struck me that it was impossible that the Abbot of a 16th century monastery in rural England would be black. And that casting black actors in positions of power and influence might well give viewers a completely unrealistic idea of the status of black people in British history, and actually gloss over their struggles. So stylised historical figures, as in Shakespeare where we all know there's an element of fantasy (I recently saw a colourblind Coriolanus that was brilliant),no issue at all, of course. But historical dramas that are trying to represent life in the past roughly as it was-maybe actually unhelpful? Incidentally, I know that one of the main characters in the Shardlake books is black. But he has a detailed backstory, and the discrimination he faced is part of his life.

Grammarnut · 20/02/2025 15:53

latetothefisting · 16/02/2025 10:56

But life isn't colourblind so why should fictional life be? It's weird to somehow pretend that skin colour isn't relevant and doesn't have any impact on someone's life - its not just the way we look (although that in itself affects the way we go through life and others interact with us) but our family history, our background, our culture.

I think the overall verismilitude of the performance is relevant

E.g. fantasy dramas - if you can have dragons you can have black people! Particularly if it actually provides context to the story - e.g. it makes sense in GOT/HOTD that the Velaryon and dornish characters have different skin tones, it would be strange if one random member of the starks were black or Asian without any explanation.

Same with plays and musicals - you are already suspending disbelief that a cardboard background is actually a city and people are bursting into song so the colour of peoples skin (or even their gender) is all part of that

With Bridgerton etc the music, dialogue and other stylistic choices make it clear its not attempting to be an authentic replication of the early 19th century, and, again, the creators have provided an in-universe explanation of why there are more people of colour.

Then of course there are all the historical dramas where multiple cultures are historically accurate- not the one in a million chance of having a black bishop in medieval England but ancient rome, egypt, 19th century new york, whatever...

So there are lots of ways casting can be more diverse, without even mentioning the most obvious - historical dramas from/set in countries with a majority non white population (which would be great similarly because its something different - do we really need yet another Jane austen or dickens drama? When we can have a shogun)

But if you are trying to present as historically accurate a film as possible then its doing a completely disservice to everyone - the actor, the audience and the real people who lived in that time to just cast a Asian actor and pretend nobody will nonotice, when really their race would have informed everything about their life. Its actually more racist to just whitewash history and pretend racism never existed as it suggests people were making a big fuss about nothing.

And of course if you are representing a real person they should be of the same physical appearance (unless an obvious stylistic choices e.g. cate blanchett as one of the many bob dylans within the same film). That's not just skin colour but everything else, including gender. If you cast a man as Elizabeth 1 it underrmines the struggles she faced as a ruling queen. A 30 year old Anne Frank would negate the veracity and tragedy of the story of a girl growing into adulthood. A Black Anne bolyen would have had a completely different life experience than a white one.

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This is one of the best answers I have come across. This is exactly my feeling. Yes, I like Austen, but dramas from other histories, other literatures would be so so welcome.

Grammarnut · 20/02/2025 15:55

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 16/02/2025 10:09

Most extreme example I’ve seen was in a play at our local theatre - Richard III played not only by a black actor, but by a black woman.
Why???
(It was a pretty rubbish play anyway.)

And it could have been good - given insights, but it was just colour and sex blind casting for its own sake, by the sounds of it.

Grammarnut · 20/02/2025 16:04

Simonjt · 19/02/2025 14:00

I think that poster is doing their version of “oh I have a black friend, so I’m not a raging racist, nor am I trying to explain racism to victims of racism”.

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No @Simonjt, the poster isn't doing 'oh I have a black friend so I'm not a raging racist'. Off hand I have one mixed race friend, who has lately been very kind to me, though that's irrelevant as is their existence in my life as a point made here (they're not irrelevant). My DD is dual heritage. She doesn't like Brigerton because the story lines are poor and she prefers her historical drama accurate and it jars on her that Brigerton is not but pretends to look as if it is - I think there might be a sense, also, that falsifying history in this way does no favours to people of other ethnicities at all, it minimizes their struggles in the past and airbrushes them away (which I definitely think). We both - and my DiL - enjoyed 'Great', which also has colour-blind casting (it's a hilarious trip round the life of Catherine the Great) but it makes no bones about being rather less than accurate, it's a comedy (and the casting of an important aristocrat in late eighteenth century Russia is accurate, there was such a person, the grandfather of the poet Pushkin).

Grammarnut · 20/02/2025 16:11

Princessconsuelabananahammock9 · 19/02/2025 17:37

Jewish people aren’t all white. Black Jews were killed as well in the Holocaust.

It’s ignorant to ascribe a race to all Jewish people.

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The Falashas are both black and Jewish. I am not sure you are right about black Jews and the Holocaust, however, though black people in general were subject to the Nuremburg rules.
And why does the colour of the Jews gassed by the Nazis matter? It was racist genocide whatever colour anyone was.

Grammarnut · 20/02/2025 16:14

@Simonjt - editing eludes me. There was an important aristocrat in eighteenth century Russia who was black (an ex-slave), the grandfather of Pushkin. To this extend 'Great's' casting was accurate.

ErrolTheDragon · 20/02/2025 16:14

Why can’t black people and other minorities play powerful wealthy roles in history?

They can, but if the drama is set in a real time and place where racism would have precluded them being in a position of power then it's at the risk of distorting peoples perception of that reality. Maybe you don't think that matters, but some do.

There's certainly no problem in casting black people, women and minority people in such roles in fictitious 'histories' . And it'd be great to see dramatisations of real histories of powerful black people, women and minorities.

gatheryerosebuds · 20/02/2025 16:21

Princessconsuelabananahammock9 · 20/02/2025 15:23

If the history is so different what is the point of this thread?

Why can’t black people and other minorities play powerful wealthy roles in history?

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I was talking about now in 2025. I personally don't think racism is institutionalised in 2025.

I haven't made any comments about POC in period dramas other than to say that I thought the doctor in the recent "miss Austen" was good.

I suppose it's all about to what extent one wishes to suspend disbelief. For example for me Henry VIII must be pale with ginger hair (which is why I really got into Wolf Hall as Damien Lewis was perfect as Henry. ) I couldn't have got into the drama so much if the actor were white, but looked Italian for example.

But having said that, I would be OK with say a black Churchill, as long as he (and it would have to be male), got the voice and mannerisms right and was of stocky build.

TheAmusedQuail · 20/02/2025 17:49

Grammarnut · 20/02/2025 14:39

@TheAmusedQuail tends not to read posts but jumps to the conclusion that you should see past inappropriate colour-blind casting e.g. a black sixteenth century abbot - that's not likely - otherwise you must have some other agenda. As to abbots of colour, if it were the 7th century or 9th, then it's possible and acceptable. However, I do wish colour blind casting was not all one way.

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And @Grammarnut chooses to speak for other MN members in order to bolster her own agenda. You've got plenty of words for yourself. I don't want
'em thanks.

I've got your number, but I definitely won't be calling.

Plexie · 20/02/2025 17:58

For example for me Henry VIII must be pale with ginger hair (which is why I really got into Wolf Hall as Damien Lewis was perfect as Henry. ) I couldn't have got into the drama so much if the actor were white, but looked Italian for example.

On a slight tangent, it interests me to see how Catherine of Aragon is portrayed. Often it's by an actress with dark hair who 'looks' Spanish by our current expectations of what Spaniards look like. Whereas in fact she had red hair and blue eyes.

mandes1 · 20/02/2025 18:32

Grammarnut · 20/02/2025 11:20

Yawn, no-one listens or reads properly. I did not say white working class boys were discriminated against because of the colour of their skin, I said they were the most disadvantaged group in the UK. They are discriminated against because of social class (a far more influential cause of poor outcomes than colour in the UK).
And I will say it again, racism is NOT about colour, it is about otherness. This is why the Conservative party has no problem at all with a leader or ministers etc who are black or brown etc, because their criteria is wealth-creation and business-friendly politics (and biological reality these days). Many who believe in the oppressor/victim narrative call those black or brown people who rise through Conservative channels not black/brown enough, race traitors, and some pejorative terms I will not use (because they are racist). Black and brown people are not meant to be successful and vote Tory because that does not fit with the oppressor/victim narrative - that they do shows that the oppressor/victim narrative is false.
I think black teenagers are stopped and searched because the evidence is that they are more likely to belong to post-code gangs and carry knives than other demographics. If that description fittend Chinese people they would be targetted instead. Personally, I'd rather the police spent time on likely knife-carriers (whatever their ethnicity - and in Glasgow I bet it is white working class boys who are stopped and searched most frequently) than waste time frisking grannies. It keeps people alive.
Your racism is pretty breath-taking.

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How can racism NOT be about colour when a black person can and has been racially abused on sight. You are trying your hardest to deny racism exists aren't you?

I wish it didn't but it still does unfortunately.

And assuming that black boys cannot come from a working class family - therefore being disadvantaged for being both black and working class. I am not saying that white working classs boys aren't disadvantaged btw but its not down to race or some delussional thought that all the advantages are being transferred to black boys - if you know otherwise please let me know so i can pass on the news 🙄

I am for stop and search too but unfortunately the police profile black boys and men based on colour - how can this work? A professional black man with a nice car getting stopped several times a month? Always ok unless it's you and yours isn't it?

Grammarnut · 20/02/2025 18:59

mandes1 · 20/02/2025 14:54

What on earth is going on here?

Is it a competition? Are we competing over who has it harder? I'm black and a woman so do I qualify for a discrimination badge of honour?

Are some people so fragile they can't even allow black people to express their experiences of discrimination?

Remember, you always see what you believe to be true - you'll notice more people of colour in tv/adverts etc because it suits your narrative that the industry is heavily biased towards black actors over white - this is absolute nonsense. The majority of tv shows /films have majority white cast (and crew) and so we should expect, being a (hugely) majority white country. No complaints from me there.

Obviously when it comes to London theatre, actors have to live within one hour distance away so you'd expect to see more poc seeing as more poc live in London.

Even when on set, other issues occur: try getting a make up artist or hairstylist who specialises in black hair/make up. Very unlikely.

Stop acting like black actors are living the life of Riley with their pick of jobs. The industry is very unpredictable for all actors but poc (and other groups) have other challenges on top of that.

Sorry to collate all my gripes onto your reply but people in here, it seems, want to minimise poc's struggles and lessen their opportunities.
Be nice.

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Hi. I would endorse everything you say - and it's true we see what we expect (I have written a whole book around this idea and Kit Marlowe!) and so we tend to 'clock' more diverse people in ads (I have presumed the mix in ads is to make sure they target as many demographics as possible, nothing to do with treating anyone equably). I don't mind you targetting my reply - I was at the end of a particularly irritating tether that began with a poster saying that being Jewish was not a racism issue, which so floored me I did not know what to say. Things have spiralled from there.
I am not in any competition at all.

Socrateswasrightaboutvoting · 20/02/2025 20:32

Grammarnut · 20/02/2025 18:59

Hi. I would endorse everything you say - and it's true we see what we expect (I have written a whole book around this idea and Kit Marlowe!) and so we tend to 'clock' more diverse people in ads (I have presumed the mix in ads is to make sure they target as many demographics as possible, nothing to do with treating anyone equably). I don't mind you targetting my reply - I was at the end of a particularly irritating tether that began with a poster saying that being Jewish was not a racism issue, which so floored me I did not know what to say. Things have spiralled from there.
I am not in any competition at all.

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@Grammarnut Wow. Text book behavior. I have always pitied mixed heritage children that have a parent like you.

Nothing has spiraled. You are exactly what you present yourself to be.

Grammarnut · 20/02/2025 21:41

Princessconsuelabananahammock9 · 20/02/2025 15:27

Racism is about colour.

It sounds like you struggle to accept your whiteness is an advantage.

I don’t understand why it’s hard to understand?

It’s in the name. It’s not called otherism.

Do you think discrimination of disabled people is also racism?

You sound upset that you’re less oppressed which is bizarre.

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No, racism is not about colour, it is about otherness. Thus, Jews, who are mainy white, are racistly discriminated against, and currently most brutally so. There was a pogrom against Jews on 7th Oct 2023 by people I think you would call 'of colour (I hope you do not support Hamas!). Just today, the bodies (bodies) of a woman and her two little children (4 years and 9 mths respectively) were returned to Israel, with a great fanfare about how evil Jews are. That is racism and has nothing, but nothing to do with colour. A baby of 9 months was brought to death because he was Jewish and for no other reason.
I am mostly of Irish descent with a recognisable Irish Catholic surname. The Irish are discriminated against in both the UK and the US, historically. Don't tell me racism has to do with colour. It doesn't and its bloody racist to suggest it does - colour can be a marker but it is not the source of racism. I won't say go and educate yourself about the Holocaust or about being Irish, because I am not the sort of idiot who says those things. But your racism takes the biscuit.
Thought I might add about my background, since it is so privileged! I was the illegitimate daughter of a Catholic with an Irish surname and a Protestant from Hampshire. My childhood was spent in grotty basement flats, one room to a family accommodation (shared lavatory and kitchen) in multi-occupational houses. I went to a secondary modern (because I was a girl and the pass mark for grammar school was higher for a girl, both my brothers went to grammar school) and my mother went out charring (that's cleaning people's houses) so that I and my brothers could stay at school so that our lives would not be as hard as my parents. My father was in prison until I was aged six, too - which does not privilege you much in the job market and just makes having an Irish surname considerably worse. You have no idea what racism is.

Grammarnut · 20/02/2025 21:50

CurlewKate · 20/02/2025 15:37

@Grammarnut
"However, I do wish colour blind casting was not all one way"

It isn't.

Mainly it is. Where are your white Chakas, or Tipu Sultans?

Grammarnut · 20/02/2025 22:01

TheAmusedQuail · 20/02/2025 17:49

And @Grammarnut chooses to speak for other MN members in order to bolster her own agenda. You've got plenty of words for yourself. I don't want
'em thanks.

I've got your number, but I definitely won't be calling.

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Ffsu. You obviously don't read posts properly and have an agenda. Mine is that my dual heritage children are liable to face discrimination from both Indians and white people. What's your issue? Neither of them like Brigerton, but for different reasons i.e. DS thinks its rubbish. DSS and DiL probably don't watch it but enjoyed The Great - which is an amusing take off of the reign of Catherine the Great - she was Empress of Russia in case you don't know.
I am having great fun btw.

Grammarnut · 20/02/2025 22:05

Grammarnut · 19/02/2025 10:59

What were you expecting, Curlew? Colour-blind casting is an issue that raises hackles across all sorts of divides. A black Shylock is possible, of course, but Jessica would also have to be a matching ethnicity. A black Henry V would only work in an all-black or mixed-race caste and set somewhere other than fifteenth century Europe. Elizabeth Bennet was not black - to do the story that way would mean setting it somewhere quite different, and then the story might not work because the context is important. As long as people give a toss about race colour-blind casting will be problematic for some.

And historical figures (real people) being portrayed by actors of a different ethnicity misrepresents history, which suits some but is not good for the understanding of past events. The other difficulty is that it always seems to be the 'white' characters who must be colour-blind cast. No-one is happy with a European Tipu Sultan, or an army of white Zulus, but those should be as acceptable as a black Anne Boleyn, if colour blind casting is wanted. Since they don't seem to be acceptable - and there I think we are in the 'victim/oppressor' narrative as though a victim could not also be an oppressor - there is something wrong with the colour-blind casting narrative. Hence thread has gone in unexpected directions.

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By the Lord Harry, a couple of people agree with me!

Grammarnut · 20/02/2025 22:12

mandes1 · 20/02/2025 18:32

How can racism NOT be about colour when a black person can and has been racially abused on sight. You are trying your hardest to deny racism exists aren't you?

I wish it didn't but it still does unfortunately.

And assuming that black boys cannot come from a working class family - therefore being disadvantaged for being both black and working class. I am not saying that white working classs boys aren't disadvantaged btw but its not down to race or some delussional thought that all the advantages are being transferred to black boys - if you know otherwise please let me know so i can pass on the news 🙄

I am for stop and search too but unfortunately the police profile black boys and men based on colour - how can this work? A professional black man with a nice car getting stopped several times a month? Always ok unless it's you and yours isn't it?

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I know it's not about colour, being of Irish heritage. Also, many Jews are white but they still experience racism. That's why I know it's not about colour. Colour is just an added marker, not the absolute one cause. That is 'otherness'. That is it is otherness explains the massacres in Rwanda, the Holocaust, the crusade against the Cathars.

Grammarnut · 20/02/2025 22:15

mandes1 · 20/02/2025 18:32

How can racism NOT be about colour when a black person can and has been racially abused on sight. You are trying your hardest to deny racism exists aren't you?

I wish it didn't but it still does unfortunately.

And assuming that black boys cannot come from a working class family - therefore being disadvantaged for being both black and working class. I am not saying that white working classs boys aren't disadvantaged btw but its not down to race or some delussional thought that all the advantages are being transferred to black boys - if you know otherwise please let me know so i can pass on the news 🙄

I am for stop and search too but unfortunately the police profile black boys and men based on colour - how can this work? A professional black man with a nice car getting stopped several times a month? Always ok unless it's you and yours isn't it?

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I know it's not about colour, being of Irish heritage. Also, many Jews are white but they still experience racism. That's why I know it's not about colour. Colour is just an added marker, not the absolute one cause. That is 'otherness'. That is it is otherness explains the massacres in Rwanda, the Holocaust, the crusade against the Cathars.
I by no means deny racism exists. I am saying it is not based on colour - or not based on colour alone, if that helps. I am the mother of two mixed-children, believe me I have experienced racism.
My late DH had long hair and a beard. Drug dealer (he abhored drugs) was the first assumption about him.

gatheryerosebuds · 20/02/2025 22:15

I think under the Equality Act, “race” includes Scottish or English

Grammarnut · 20/02/2025 22:23

Socrateswasrightaboutvoting · 20/02/2025 20:32

@Grammarnut Wow. Text book behavior. I have always pitied mixed heritage children that have a parent like you.

Nothing has spiraled. You are exactly what you present yourself to be.

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Have you read Plato's Republic?I have and I would not call myself anything to do with Socrates or Plato, who believes tyrrany is the best political option. My DC are fine, identify as English, get on well with their full-heritage cousins and are happy and prosperous (as are their full-heritage cousins being doctors, dentists, barristers etc) - as also are my DSC. I have just spent an evening with DS who engages with everyone, has plenty of friends etc. His only beef is people of his heritate who expect him to behave in accordance with that heritate - which he doesn't.

TheAmusedQuail · 20/02/2025 23:01

Grammarnut · 20/02/2025 22:01

Ffsu. You obviously don't read posts properly and have an agenda. Mine is that my dual heritage children are liable to face discrimination from both Indians and white people. What's your issue? Neither of them like Brigerton, but for different reasons i.e. DS thinks its rubbish. DSS and DiL probably don't watch it but enjoyed The Great - which is an amusing take off of the reign of Catherine the Great - she was Empress of Russia in case you don't know.
I am having great fun btw.

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Good for you. My agenda is that the UK is a racist country. Not everyone is racist of course. I'm frequently surprised by people who by their demographic, could be, but aren't.

Your mixed heritage family members don't automatically cancel out your racism. They could have been a learning point for you. Instead you just double down and embed your place. By all means, assume anyone that disagrees with you is ignorant. But frankly, you've just churned out the same argument, again and again. It's boring.

But keep churning out the academic references. Clearly you feel you're the only intellectual here. Echo chamber of one.

mandes1 · 21/02/2025 00:08

Grammarnut · 20/02/2025 22:15

I know it's not about colour, being of Irish heritage. Also, many Jews are white but they still experience racism. That's why I know it's not about colour. Colour is just an added marker, not the absolute one cause. That is 'otherness'. That is it is otherness explains the massacres in Rwanda, the Holocaust, the crusade against the Cathars.
I by no means deny racism exists. I am saying it is not based on colour - or not based on colour alone, if that helps. I am the mother of two mixed-children, believe me I have experienced racism.
My late DH had long hair and a beard. Drug dealer (he abhored drugs) was the first assumption about him.

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How can you say you KNOW its not about colour. MY experience was it was about colour. There. Let's leave it at that.

VivienneDelacroix · 21/02/2025 00:49

Any thread about race on Mumsnet will attract the racism deniers, or will invite a whole-load of "what-aboutery".
People calling the concept of white fragility "racist"; people saying racism isn't important because other types of discrimination exist; people claiming that the UK isn't a racist society because America is more racist...

It's infuriating and exhausting. If you deny racism is an issue in the UK, then you must be actively looking away and putting your fingers in your ears

Princessconsuelabananahammock9 · 21/02/2025 05:55

Grammarnut · 20/02/2025 21:41

No, racism is not about colour, it is about otherness. Thus, Jews, who are mainy white, are racistly discriminated against, and currently most brutally so. There was a pogrom against Jews on 7th Oct 2023 by people I think you would call 'of colour (I hope you do not support Hamas!). Just today, the bodies (bodies) of a woman and her two little children (4 years and 9 mths respectively) were returned to Israel, with a great fanfare about how evil Jews are. That is racism and has nothing, but nothing to do with colour. A baby of 9 months was brought to death because he was Jewish and for no other reason.
I am mostly of Irish descent with a recognisable Irish Catholic surname. The Irish are discriminated against in both the UK and the US, historically. Don't tell me racism has to do with colour. It doesn't and its bloody racist to suggest it does - colour can be a marker but it is not the source of racism. I won't say go and educate yourself about the Holocaust or about being Irish, because I am not the sort of idiot who says those things. But your racism takes the biscuit.
Thought I might add about my background, since it is so privileged! I was the illegitimate daughter of a Catholic with an Irish surname and a Protestant from Hampshire. My childhood was spent in grotty basement flats, one room to a family accommodation (shared lavatory and kitchen) in multi-occupational houses. I went to a secondary modern (because I was a girl and the pass mark for grammar school was higher for a girl, both my brothers went to grammar school) and my mother went out charring (that's cleaning people's houses) so that I and my brothers could stay at school so that our lives would not be as hard as my parents. My father was in prison until I was aged six, too - which does not privilege you much in the job market and just makes having an Irish surname considerably worse. You have no idea what racism is.

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Did you just tell a black woman I have no idea what racism is?

You are ridiculous.

TheAmusedQuail · 21/02/2025 06:29

Princessconsuelabananahammock9 · 21/02/2025 05:55

Did you just tell a black woman I have no idea what racism is?

You are ridiculous.

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Breathtaking arrogance.

Can we talk about colourblind casting...

Interested in this thread?