Can we talk about colourblind casting...

[CurlewKate]

...without the thread descending into a woke/anti-woke stramash?

Obviously it's a great advance that black actors now have access to many more parts than they did- and obviously in most cases it makes absolutely no difference to the play, show, whatever. But I was watching Shardlake,and it struck me that it was impossible that the Abbot of a 16th century monastery in rural England would be black. And that casting black actors in positions of power and influence might well give viewers a completely unrealistic idea of the status of black people in British history, and actually gloss over their struggles. So stylised historical figures, as in Shakespeare where we all know there's an element of fantasy (I recently saw a colourblind Coriolanus that was brilliant),no issue at all, of course. But historical dramas that are trying to represent life in the past roughly as it was-maybe actually unhelpful?

Incidentally, I know that one of the main characters in the Shardlake books is black. But he has a detailed backstory, and the discrimination he faced is part of his life.

So a historical white male in a drama (eg Richard II) should be portrayed by someone of the same race but not necessarily by someone of the same gender?

Why the distinction?

My view is that it’s far less about whether the character was real or not, and more about whether race is a relevant part of the play, show or film.

So a black Anne Boleyn doesn’t really matter because her race was not relevant to her story. A white Martin Luther King, on the other hand would be absurd because the entire basis of any art form based on MLK is likely to be about his pursuit of civil rights.

Hamilton is a good example of where it does matter - because the message the show is sending is about the commonalities between the founding fathers and communities of colour or immigrants in the modern US. Therefore the casting of black and brown actors - where the only white actor is the guy playing George III - is highly relevant to the message of the show.

Casting is always a bit silly - how many unattractive actors do you see? I could be an amazing talent, hard working, whatever but never get a role because I'm not good looking enough. But noone seems to find that jarring. But a talented hard working, attractive non-White actor? OMG, suddenly people claim not to be able to understand the film as a result.

What do we actually know about attitudes to race in medieval and early modern times? That’s a genuine question btw, I really don’t know. Maybe they didn’t care about skin colour and other things were more important to them like religion or money or how good they were at fighting or something else. I’ve just gone down a rabbit hole of 16th century trade routes to see where people travelled to and from and haven’t found an answer but it would be interesting to know.

I don’t mind colour blind casting unless race is important to the story for some reason, like a film about immigrants arriving in Europe in the 50s or whatever.

@Sherararara "Latest one that really irks me is casting a black actress to play Astrid in the How to Train your Dragon live action movie"

🤣did you also complain that Dr Who shouldn't be played by a black actor because Dr Who wasn't black?

I've seen a number of Shakespeare plays at the RSC in recent years with black and Asian actors playing roles where it really didn't matter - most recently, Twelfth Night where (for example, but there were several actors of colour in the cast) Freema Agyeman was a fabulous Olivia.

I only struggle a bit when a black actor is cast as a family member in a play, film or TV show where the whole family is clearly white - I saw the National production of Frankenstein a few years ago and a black actor was cast as Dr Frankenstein's father, which jarred. Make the whole family black, by all means - it doesn't matter then.

I'm OK with colourblind casting when it truly is that. We have a role and the person of this colour was the best person to play it, and race isn't an issue for the character. I have more of an issue with 'token' casting. For example, Charlie, in the fairly dreadful Darling Buds of May remake. If they'd just cast a black actor that would have been fine, but they made the character come from Nigeria, and have him and his parents be immediately and totally accepted into a small 1950s Kent village with no prejudice whatsoever, even loving Nigerian food straight away, despite a reference earlier on in the episode to the villagers having issues with new fangled foods like lettuce, or something equally innocuous.
To me, portraying situations like that, which are very unlikely, is more likely to gloss over the struggles of immigrants into this country than pure colourblind casting.
For all Call The Midwife's faults and sappiness, I think it does a good job of portraying the struggles of immigrants in the 1950s and 60s and the racism they faced.

Yes.

I actively want to see diversity in tv and film etc.

But when it's set in a particular time and place when racism was overt and there's no accompanying references to the struggle that person would actually have been experiencing, I think it does everyone a disservice. You can't pretend racism out of existence.

oh this.....and the differences in the clothes!

I think plays/ musicals there is a greater suspension of belief and so the colour of the actors doesn’t matter as much.

But in TV and film it does. It is not surprising that historical films/TV set in a predominantly white country will feature predominantly white people. This is not inherently a bad thing. Contemporary stories are different though, even though it does sometimes feel a bit forced (so not actually colourblind).

I think it does matter, we pick up a lot form popular programmes, more than we want to admit. Doctor Who had Newton played by a mixed race actor. This felt very forced and deliberate to create a ‘discussion’. In my mind it would have been better for the doctor to go and see an actual non-white scientist and highlight them/ their work - there are many. Instead it actually downplays other ethnicities contribution to science as the only way to include it is fake.

But WHY does that irk you? If her life’s dream was to be in an live action remake of the film, and she’s an actress capable of doing that - do you honestly think she should be told no because she’s black?! And while I appreciate a black Viking is extremely unlikely, it’s more likely that there were black vikings than there were dragons. If we accept it’s set in a different universe to ours, then black vikings might have been common!

I didn’t even think I was that woke (GC, wary of DEI initiatives), but after reading this thread I’m astounded.

If there is a plot about race, then race matters (eg you couldn’t colour blind cast Noughts and Crosses, or Seven Years a Slave without creating confusion), but if you’re not intelligent enough to be told that this person is Anne Boleyn and understand they’re supposed to be Anne Boleyn because they don’t look like her (a person you’ve never seen a photograph of), then it’s your cognitive ability that’s the problem, not the casting.

Representation is important. Let Black kids see that they can do whatever they want to do, including playing historical characters, instead of reinforcing institutional racism. Or we could start telling more stories with black people in them - but I think instructional racism means that they’re just not as interesting to a white population, and so don’t gain the same popularity. Or the stories haven’t been recorded in order to be retold.

(I realise how woke I do sound in this post, but honestly I’m a right of centre Tory voter with some strong non woke views, I’m just surprised at how much of an issue this is for some people!)

@viques I did make it very clear in my OP that I was talking about Britain.

Even worse, he didn’t have two hearts!

Lol, methinks you misunderstand the meaning of bigotry! Maybe educate yourself?

'@BobbyBiscuits · Today 10:21

Saying people who are real should only be played by a member of the same race seems a bit much. You make the character look realistic with costume, hair and makeup and the skill of the actor and director, their movements, posture, speech etc. it has nothing to do with race or skin colour.'

I disagree. Ethnicity/background can be a very important part of a story.

You could not for example have Diana, Elizabeth the 2nd or the Queen Mother played by black actors. Because in real life the royal family has we know is not necessarily welcoming to people from other ethnicities, so that casting would never work because it would make the story completely unbelievable.

You could no remake something like Schindler's List with with non-white actors playing German nazi officers.

It would be silly to try to do a TV series about the Windrush Generation with white actors in the key roles. No amount of movement or posture or speech would turn Timothée Chalamet into a believable Caribbean immigrant.

I wasn’t responding to your post though.

I went to see Les Miserables on tour at the theatre.

The actress playing Cosette as a child was white, as was her mother.

Second half: Cosette has grown up, but is now played by a black actress. Her name is not mentioned until half way through second half so my friend (who'd not seen it before) had no idea that it was supposed to be Cosette grown up. She thought it was a new character.

Luckily I'd seen it before to help her afterwards but it's integral to the storyline and was extremely confusing.

So I think these sort of important plot and character issues need to be considered; if blind casting ensures the plot line is not understandable or causes confusion, it shouldn't be done.

Exactly “colour blind casting” has applied for white actors wanting to play characters of minority ethnicities for decades. All it is doing now is trying to level the playing field by getting audiences used to seeing minority actors/actresses in white roles.

Scarlet Johansen played an Asian role
Angelina Jolie played multiple Black roles
Johnny Depp played a Native American role
Analeigh Tipton played a Black Ethiopian role
Antony Hopkins played a Black role
Ben Affleck played a Hispanic role
Carey Mulligan played a Latina role
ALL the roles of Exodus:Gods and Kings were whitewashed
Christopher Abbot and Alfred Molina played Arab roles
Emile Hirsch played an Asian role
Emma Stone played an indigenous Hawaiian role
Jake Gywnenhall played an Iranian role
Jennifer Connolly played a Latina role
Jim Sturgiss played an Asian role
Kate Bosworth played an Asian role
Josh Hartnett played an Alaskan Inuit role
Justin Chatwin played an Asian role
Liam Neeson played an Arab role
Mena Suvari played a Black role
Adam Winguard played an Asian role
Nicola Peltz played an Asian role
Jackson Rathbone played an Asian role
Rooney Mara played a Native American role
Tilda Swinton played an Asian role
Tom Cruise played an Asian role

I am sure there are hundreds more.

@Soontobe60 I don't know. I wouldn't immediately dismiss it as shite without seeing it. I think the problem is the lack of opportunities for black people in the acting world in general. If there was a film about a well known black person, then I would hope they'd use a black actor. They can't exactly use blackface. But if no black actor was good enough then they should use someone else?!

@ThejoyofNC "My issue with so called colourblind casting is that it's not colourblind at all and only seems to work one way. Giving "white" roles to black actors is applauded, whilst a white actor who took on a "black" role would be viciously attacked"

Could you give me some examples of "black" roles?

Yes same here. I like films/series to reflect the fashion/decor/language and race of that period. I find it interesting and educational.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Maurice was an Egyptian military leader. He joined the Roman army, like many Black Africans. However, I wasn't aware that he became an Abbott or lived in a predominantly white society with status like that.

I really dont mind it in any way unless it is recent history and portrayed as an accurate representation of actual events. Everything else? Totally fair game. I also love gender blind casting - to me I am always suspending disbelief when I watch any actor so those elements dont matter. I know people say it takes them out of the show/moment and some has been incredibly clumsy (Anne Boleyn show) - but I dont think anything I watch is massively historically accurate, so perhaps I am coming from a different direction.

I already posted about this up thread. It doesn’t matter if Astrid is a black Viking cos it’s about dragons!! It’s not realistic anyway

*I think plays/ musicals there is a greater suspension of belief and so the colour of the actors doesn’t matter as much.

But in TV and film it does. *

This.

For me there is a stronger element of suspension of disbelief of stage anyway. But film/TV is more naturalistic looking so it needs to be more believable.

And yet Patrick Stewart played Othello to much acclaim.
Coincidentally, it is thought likely that Shakespeare conjured Othello from an old tale about 'a Moor' after a Senior envoy from overseas and his entourage visited Court for some months around 1600. Black people in senior positions of the past aren't a modern day woke invention. For some reason they were largely whitewashed out of the public consciousness in later years.