How bad is it to be rude about boss in WhatsApp messages

[lurchersforever]

Obviously it's ill advised but what actual grounds for discipline would there be?

The messages are from lockdown when we were all bored/stressed and are rude and insulting about the way boss was handling the situation.

Fout people in the chat. One person has now revealed them to the boss out of malice. Boss has said nothing for a while then revealed he has seen them but lied about where he got them.

Where do we stand?

What is your relationship like with your manager now? If it were me I would explain it was lockdown, stress and venting, but you feel after 5 years your relationship has improved and doesn’t reflect that time

I didn’t say anything about you all being female. That’s something you concluded.

It doesn’t matter about the device or that it’s on WhatsApp.

you did a nasty shitty thing and your boss has been shown it.

it’s very unlikely given the dignified way your boss is behaving that anything will come if it.

but your relationship is probably damaged forever.

the only decent thing to do is apologise.

Of course it's different. But my point is that can't just say WhatsApp is 'private messaging' and not social media. Saying things on WhatsApp isn't necessarily outside a company's social media policy and no one should suggest otherwise. Whether a company's social media policy applies will depend on the exact language but one that specifically excludes WhatsApp entirely would be rare in my experience.

I once had to let someone go and had to go through certain of their emails afterwards - I let them go because of an ongoing issue with an important client and I needed to see the tone and content of their final emails to that client and potentially do some damage control.

Anyways...this guy definitely did not like me. Some of it was general bitching and moaning which is fair, but some of it was incredibly nasty stuff about my age and body (think: dry/menopausal/ugly old bat, that type of misogyny and you get the picture).

Was it horrible seeing those things about myself in writing with my IT manager sat there also reading? Yes.

Did it upset and unbalance me for a few days? Yes.

Did I get over it surprisingly quickly and realise how meaningless it is to set too much store by other people's opinions of you? Yes.

Did I eventually enjoy a cold dish of revenge by being scathingly honest about his lack of ability when another agency contacted me because they were thinking of hiring him?

Also....yes.

Unfortunately, this is what happens when you write stuff down and share it with others - you have absolutely no control over what they choose to do with it in the future.

If it was four years ago and nothing has happened since, then I doubt much will come of it aside from a warning about your behaviour, but in the future, never write anything down that you wouldn't be happy to share to someone's face.

Not making excuses, but it was an emotional and stressful time. I’m sure your boss would have been hurt by the comments but I would apologise and move on.

In my workplace, gossiping about people behind their backs is considered bullying (regardless of whether the subject is aware or not), and depending on the content could be considered gross misconduct. But I think it’s very unlikely we would move to dismissal if it dates back to Covid, is aimed upwards rather than at peers / subordinates, and there are no other behavioural concerns.

Having said that I’d suggest in any disciplinary meeting you are much more apologetic than you have been on here. By all means talk about the stress and mental health issues at the time, but for us you’d have to be apologetic and accept the behaviour was wrong for us to put it to bed.

Once your issue has been resolved you could have a discussion with HR about retaliation though. Multiple vexatious grievances is also gross misconduct…

A number of people on this thread have said that WhatsApp is not social media. It isn't social networking, but whether WhatsApp is social media is open to debate. Some say it is, some say it isn't. If you define social media as a platform that allows users to create and share content with other users in virtual communities or networks, it meets that definition.

Regardless of what we think, an employer can choose to say that WhatsApp is covered by its social media policy. The courts would not find that unreasonable. OP could, therefore, face disciplinary action over this.

Of course it’s not irrelevant, don’t be silly

It pretty much is irrelevant- most company policies have a clause (or several) about how you shouldn't criticise the company publicly in writing or on social media. A shared WhatsApp chat typically comes under social media.

A lot of people on this thread seem blissfully unaware of the fact that you can lose your job over what you share on social media or in "private" chats with colleagues.

I don’t know what the end result of the BA bullying case I provided a link to upthread but as I recall at least some of the supposed discussions took place when individuals were off duty, not at work..

This is one for the experts but I think a lot will depend on company policies.
I do think it’s naive to think being off company premises or off the clock provides a cast iron defence in cases such as this.

True, your character is who you are.
Doing it on WhatsApp where there's a record doesn't bode well either.

The police misconduct through WhatsApp was around covid time too.

Anything with a trail can come to light.

When you boss said he had seen them, how did that conversation actually go?

Did he tell you all together, or just you as an individual?

Can you sue your employer if your boss asks for "a quick shag in the toilet".
Would you accept that your employer would go "nothing to see here as it did not happen on the job"?
Or would you expect that your employer make some adjustment when you said you had concerns?

Easy solution is to change the policy to say no sexual harrassment in or outside of work.
Then the quick shag comment is breach of policy and a reactive change to the employment contract by employer.
So next time your boss asks for quick shag they can be sacked.

If you commit a crime in work (murdered you boss) its not a sackable action unless breaches a term of your contract. So once you can turn up and do the job, your remaining work mates have to let you in and pay you.
If you created the breach, not turning up while in jail, the not turning up is the sackable part of your action and the not turning up has to be for a long period of time
So arrested jailed and bailed and turning up is a problem. Because you may take annual leave for the trial and be found not guilty. The not guilty verdict trumps an employer's guilty verdict.

So general obay the law and detailed violence in the workplace policy is introduced, and been-seen-do-murder is on-the-spot sackable but suspected-of-murder gets suspended on unpaid leave.

Same idea for workplace friendships, catch all policy for when and if you can tell your boss/work mate to FRO (without you bullying them) or asking for shag if you are dating gets introduced etc.
The contract now has a morals clause were the employer gets to set the bar of what is industry professional (eg if the OP worked for the Local Church bad language on its own could be sackable)

You say you've had grievances raised against you - I'm assuming that these are by the employee in the group chat who has since revealed the messages, not the boss raising a grievance about the comments themselves?

As for where you stand, it could be a disciplinary issue for a number of reasons: Bullying, social media misuse, malicious comms etc. If they are threatening you with disciplinary actions, check their policies on the above and speak to ACAS/your union rep if you have one.

You're in a management role with the company - At the very least I'd expect some form of verbal warning about your poor judgement.

I would do some self reflection OP, yes everyone has moaned in the past I did particularly when I was young and naive. However most people in leadership positions are doing their best with the tools or information they have.

Covid was a difficult time for everyone and having had a to lead a business through it at the same time as experiencing pretty nasty toxic online "feedback & reviews" I would tell you it was no picnic do try to remember that your bosses are just people to.

Also you can use historic messages for disciplinary purposes if they have only just become apparent, I have done so for investigations when they formed part of a wider case.

I just could work somewhere this toxic. Life is too short.

What’s being low paid have to do with anything? What’s being young have to do with anything? So do you look down at these people and afford them less respect? You think older professionals are incapable of bullying and bitching, because for sure they can be, and they usually get away with a lot of it because they are wrongly seen as “respected senior colleagues” or whatever, and people not to mess with.

Could not ☺️

OP I think you’re trying very hard to minimise what you’ve done on this thread. Your group of colleagues and yourself sound like you’re in a toxic mess. WhatsApp is seen as part of social media within many work policies and I have seen someone be let go for the content of messages in the past - we can’t really comment without seeing the messages, but if you’ve been calling your boss a ‘fucking idiot’ or some such then I would say that is worse than foolish.

You need to refrain from discussing this situation any further with anyone except when asked to by your management team. You need to own up to what you have done and fully apologise and stop trying to excuse your behaviour by saying it was Covid or it’s foolish but not XYZ. You need to check your policies and see what they say. If you’re in a union you can call them and ask for advice and you need to remain professional with your colleague whom you have fallen out with and try and prevent further issues.

Hopefully your boss won’t take this further, but it’s not a good look, especially as you are in a management position.

In every job I've ever worked in, people have taken a pop at the boss. It comes with the territory. I've managed people before and fully accept that bitching can go on behind the scenes.

A prolonged attack, with personal insults for an extended period of time is bullying and won't be tolerated.

Bitching about the boss when stressed or when they've had to make a shitty decision etc is SO SO common. Sometimes people need to vent.

To the posters who seemed to be perfect, even in lockdown, I'm glad for you. Perhaps try to consider how other people were impacted and put yourself in their shoes. Mumsnet is honestly a cesspool sometimes of people trying to make others feel bad for what are common mistakes.

OP - it was 5 years ago. It sounds like those messages are part of a bigger problem. You need to have a meeting to discuss the messages and the ongoing issue with your work colleague.

Fout people in the chat. One person has now revealed them to the boss out of malice

Out of interest, did you think they were "foul" if they were joining in the slagging off, or only when they revealed what had happened to the boss?

Doubt you'll get sacked over some 5 year old comments about the boss on a private group but it will reflect badly and undermine your position. The person that has dobbed you in looks even worse though. Its a lesson learned that slagging off colleagues or managers to anyone is never a good idea.

There is not a single person alive who hasn’t said something about someone which they probably wouldn’t want them to hear/read.

That doesn’t mean that we’re a society of bullies and abusers, talking about people is human nature, and sometimes that will mean expressing frustrations over how that person is acting/behaving/the decisions they’re making.

The management in my workplace have made some truly awful decisions lately, and not only have they been criticised on private WhatsApp groups, but one employee went to the local press, while others have taken to social media.

The upset has been so widespread in the company that if they started firing people it would look far worse on them than on the people they fired.

Sometimes frustration is just that. Frustration in the heat of the moment and people say their piece.

And sometimes frustration is completely legitimate and nobody should be considered t be abusive or a bully for expressing what is potentially legitimate frustration over how things are done/handled.

Officially unlikely to be taken forwards. Was 5 years ago. If there was anything racist, homophobic, misogynistic etc that is different. But if not, then unlikely they can do anything. Unofficially however Manager may be hurt, angry etc and may make for a difficult working environment, although already sounds difficult and toxic TBH.