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Lucy Letby press conference

1000 replies

Viviennemary · 04/02/2025 10:27

There is a press conference going on now trying to get Lucy Letby's conviction overturned. From what I read the guilty verdict was sound. All those ill babies dying when she was alone with them. Just a coincidence? Already been refused an appeal.

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MistressoftheDarkSide · 04/02/2025 20:05

One of the big dangers of letting the use if medical evidence go unchallenged in this case is the danger of precedence.

Medical dogma is already used in the family courts to determine child abuse "on the balance if probabilities" - such things as metaphyseal fractures, considered pathognomic of child abuse, shaken baby syndrome, and MSBP / FII. When these things occur in babies, it is almost impossible to prove it's not abuse as chances are there are no witnesses. Often parents present bewildered in hospital with a baby with symptoms and are then blindsided by an accusation that can lead to a child being removed for permanent adoption. Often it doesn't come to a criminal trial because it is based on expert opinion and the barest of circumstantial evidence, ie X was the person alone most often with the child, ergo, X is the perpetrator. Even if it does, a not guilty finding is no guarantee you get your child back. Also, discovery of an underlying condition ironically may mean you are more likely to have abused your child, as medically vulnerable children are statistically (allegedly) at higher risk of abuse.

So, moving forward, if the evidence in Lucy Letbys case isn't looked at, potentially every time a baby dies in similar circumstances in hospital, the idea has been planted "ooh, I bet it's air embolism" or "is it insulin poisoning?" and by extension all the staff then fall under suspicion. There's a danger of it becoming the diagnosis de jour, much like FII allegedly spiked after Salky Clark and Angela Cannings.

FII as a motivation is a fantastically convenient way to hide iatrogenic abuse or error, or to provide a "motive" in caregivers. If you deny you have it - that's a signifier of the condition. Spotting the early signs often occurs when a mother challenges a professional over their care, conveniently.

So, getting this case thoroughly overhauled is in the best interests of everyone - you, me, medical professionals, children and the judiciary. Otherwise the danger is a case like this every time there's an allegedly unexplained health episode with a child.

And the criticism may come that these controversial child abuse diagnoses are the last resort when everything else has been ruled out. Unfortunately not so. A request for a collagen test, done by biopsy can be posited as evidence if further child abuse if your child has metaphyseal fractures, for example. I have direct experience of this.

I know some people abuse and kill children and wish to see them protected. However, what starts out as a vague theory can be a meal ticket for a high flier medic who sees everything through their own narrow lens.

Air embolism cannot be allowed to become yet another convenient go to in complex medicolegal cases when the evidence for it appears to be so extremely contentious.

Maia77 · 04/02/2025 20:08

EmmaMaria · 04/02/2025 19:38

I hope it isn't being condescending to point out that nowhere in UK law does it say that "a pattern of suspicious incidents" is the theshold for conviction. The legal threshold is proven beyond reasonable doubt.

The jury were convinced of her guilt beyond reasonable doubt based on the evidence presented at trial.

Oftenaddled · 04/02/2025 20:08

oneofmeiscutebuttwothough · 04/02/2025 19:36

As someone whose baby is on SCBU, having been in NICU, I'm appalled at their audacity to do this.

Those poor parents, you have to put your faith in the staff caring for your child and you have to trust them wholeheartedly. This monster took their babies away. She doesn't get to keep re traumatising those parents.

Everybody has the right to the same process before the law.
The parents have the right to the truth.
Today's panel has some of the foremost experts in the world. They have offered to go through any questions the parents have. What else can they do?
It's a tragic, tragic case.

AlertBrickBear · 04/02/2025 20:10

oneofmeiscutebuttwothough · 04/02/2025 19:47

@AlertBrickBear she did it. She's been found guilty. She's using these appeals to traumatise her victims further.

I don’t think you or I know whether she did it. Are you suggesting that the independent experts that put together this report are all doing it to traumatise the families involved? That’s quite a suggestion.

Gagaandgag · 04/02/2025 20:10

Why did she keep all the hand over sheets?

AlertBrickBear · 04/02/2025 20:11

Quitelikeit · 04/02/2025 19:46

@AlertBrickBear

I suggest you start with looking through the court transcripts and reading this:

www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/R-v-Letby-Final-Judgment-20240702.pdf

I have, which piece would you like to discuss?

neitherleftnorright · 04/02/2025 20:12

Sunshineandrainbow · 04/02/2025 12:51

Wow it's all very concerning

Why do all these people want to jump on the case to prove her innocence? What is their gain?

Because decent people do not like miscarriages of justice.

The Private Eye column recently stated that NONE of the nurses she worked with had the slightest doubt that she was innocent.

CerealPosterHere · 04/02/2025 20:13

One thing which I find interesting is Dewi Evans vested interest in this. He literally has a website touting for business as a paediatric medical expert witness. How much money was he paid for his time and services? Getting a reputation with a guilty verdict increases his worth as an expert witness. Would he always be unbiased and honest? Or would he say anything to get the verdict for his side? If she’d been found not guilty his reputation would be in tatters.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 04/02/2025 20:13

Gagaandgag · 04/02/2025 20:10

Why did she keep all the hand over sheets?

Don’t know, but ‘because she is a serial killer and they were trophies’ is at the more far fetched end of possible explanations.

EdithBond · 04/02/2025 20:16

@MistressoftheDarkSide What goes on in the family courts scares the bejesus out of me. And all behind closed doors. Now and again people tell their stories and you realise what a Kafkaesque hell they’ll been in.

rubbishatballet · 04/02/2025 20:17

Minnie798 · 04/02/2025 19:42

I genuinely believe that this needs reviewed. Too much ‘evidence’ based on opinion and rotas rather than scientific/ medical fact. Where is the chart showing the drs on duty when the babies died, for example. And include all the deaths, including when LL wasn’t even at work. If you’re going to use a rota as evidence, make the data complete. We need to be able to trust that the justice system is fair and accurate. The experts today have cast doubt on that so this conviction should be reexamined.

The chart wasn't used in court as evidence of probability, but to show that she was on shift when the babies she was accused of harming or murdering were harmed or murdered and therefore that she had the opportunity.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 04/02/2025 20:17

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 04/02/2025 20:13

Don’t know, but ‘because she is a serial killer and they were trophies’ is at the more far fetched end of possible explanations.

Indeed. Apparently she was clever enough to cause deaths that baffled her superiors and were initially undetectable, but also thick enough to litter her home with the damning evidence, even when she had been under investigation for years.....

Gagaandgag · 04/02/2025 20:17

I also remember there being some sort of proof that she altered times and the mum who brought breast milk down and ‘caught her red handed’ had contested a time and what happened

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 04/02/2025 20:18

CerealPosterHere · 04/02/2025 20:13

One thing which I find interesting is Dewi Evans vested interest in this. He literally has a website touting for business as a paediatric medical expert witness. How much money was he paid for his time and services? Getting a reputation with a guilty verdict increases his worth as an expert witness. Would he always be unbiased and honest? Or would he say anything to get the verdict for his side? If she’d been found not guilty his reputation would be in tatters.

What I find strange is how many people are cynical about the motives of independent experts acting pro bono but don’t question the integrity of Dewi Evans who touts for business as an expert witness in cases that are clearly beyond his competence, said in an interview he needed the money for school fees, and has reportedly made 7 figures in total for this case.

Gagaandgag · 04/02/2025 20:19

MistressoftheDarkSide · 04/02/2025 20:17

Indeed. Apparently she was clever enough to cause deaths that baffled her superiors and were initially undetectable, but also thick enough to litter her home with the damning evidence, even when she had been under investigation for years.....

Yes I totally agree!

Occasionalsnaccident · 04/02/2025 20:21

Gagaandgag · 04/02/2025 20:10

Why did she keep all the hand over sheets?

I can’t quite answer your question, but I worked in a hospital whilst I was at university, over 10 years ago and found some old handover print outs when clearing out a few months ago. Some of us just have a tendency to hold onto things.

Gagaandgag · 04/02/2025 20:21

How on earth would she ever begin to get over this if she is ever released

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 04/02/2025 20:24

Gagaandgag · 04/02/2025 20:21

How on earth would she ever begin to get over this if she is ever released

Probably with the help of friends and family who have never believed she did it.
I do think it is striking that no matter how much digging they have doubtless done the media have never managed to find an old school friend/flatmate etc to badmouth her.

ArchivalCurtains · 04/02/2025 20:27

This Twitter thread has screenshots of the handout from the press conference which details the non-murder cause of death for each baby.

https://x.com/LucyLetbyTrials/status/1886740278842658879

Murderous nurses are uncommon, medical negligence is not.

x.com

https://x.com/LucyLetbyTrials/status/1886740278842658879

Minnie798 · 04/02/2025 20:28

rubbishatballet · 04/02/2025 20:17

The chart wasn't used in court as evidence of probability, but to show that she was on shift when the babies she was accused of harming or murdering were harmed or murdered and therefore that she had the opportunity.

Who else was on shift and had the opportunity. There will have been others and If memory serves correctly, medical staffing wasn’t even looked at. The consultants are hardly going to admit that their own incompetence, poor care, inadequate knowledge and training etc were a problem. I hope that the expert panel today aren’t just ignored.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 04/02/2025 20:29

Gagaandgag · 04/02/2025 20:21

How on earth would she ever begin to get over this if she is ever released

Short answer - she won't. There is no getting over an experience like this. Your whole life is tainted and shaped by it. It is unlikely she could be completely exonerated or pardoned without some sort of explanation or confession from those who put her in prison. So the doubt will always remain. Her life would probably end up being very low profile.

It's not like the Gypsy Rose case, I don't think she'd want to go on the celebrity circuit.

Trusting anyone new coming into her llife will be extremely hard, questioning their motives, wondering if she'd wake up one day to an expose based on something she did or said that prompted public dissection all over again.

Because this kind of experience is relatively rare, I don't think many can grasp the absolute enormity of the psychological impact, especially the feelings that no matter what she says or dies, she will suffer constant self-doubt.

kirinm · 04/02/2025 20:30

theDudesmummy · 04/02/2025 15:44

The police sometimes use polygraphs supposedly because people have a belief that they work, so tell the truth because they think lying will be detected. Those higher up in the police know full well they have no validity at all. Whether the average copper knows this I don't know, possibly not. Either way, I can assure you there is absolutely reliable way to detect lying.

I studied American jurisprudence as part of my law degree many years ago and read about so many miscarriages of justice which relied on polygraphs (and forced confessions), I can't believe they lo be used (and relied on) here.

TizerorFizz · 04/02/2025 20:31

Just to be clear, although not relevant to this case: the Family Court do publish important cases with identifying names redacted. It’s behind closed doors but not hidden from all reporting if judges believe it’s an important area of law. Lawyers need to learn from cases.

It will be interested to see what the CCRC makes of the new opinions. It’s also totally niormal to pay expert witnesses. DH does this work in a completely unrelated field but he’s not doing it for £0. There’s overheads and hefty professional insurance.

Quitelikeit · 04/02/2025 20:34

https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/Thirlwall-Inquiry-12-November-2024.pdf

neonatologists inquiry interview who reviewed the case notes prior to knowing anything about the circumstances

Orangesandlemons77 · 04/02/2025 20:35

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 04/02/2025 20:18

What I find strange is how many people are cynical about the motives of independent experts acting pro bono but don’t question the integrity of Dewi Evans who touts for business as an expert witness in cases that are clearly beyond his competence, said in an interview he needed the money for school fees, and has reportedly made 7 figures in total for this case.

What about Ravi Javaram was he not on the TV as a doctor and was doing a new programme to do with LL?

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