Should ‘British’ kids be pushed a bit more?

[Bloodybrambles]

Following a conversation with my sister on how not one of our peers went on to become a doctor/dentist/engineer/research. Out of a couple of hundred students, I can only think of three that studied nursing/midwifery and a handful wanted to do teaching. A few of the ‘clever’ kids went on to do graduate schemes/roles and currently sit in middle management positions.

Our conversation was us having the same thought in school of our country being screwed by looking at our cohort. We’re lucky to have immigration as if the majority of our year flukes the exams and became a doctor, they either wouldn’t have a pen to do the prescription or arguing about having a dress code.

My career advice was somewhat like ‘you’re doing well in your A-levels, you like sport, you should study Sport Science at uni’.

Why on earth wasn’t we encouraged to do something useful? Surely as a country there should be some kind of drive to guide kids into doing something useful for society.

how not one of our peers went on to become a doctor/dentist/engineer/research

Aren't degrees like medicine and dentistry quite oversubscribed? So it's not like people don't want to do them, or can't get in.

I know people who went in to all those fields. But my (state comprehensive) school was quite high achieving.

Someone has got to want to do a certain job in the first place. I could never have been a nurse as wouldn't be able to empty bed pans or deal with vomit and being a dentist and looking in mouths, just no.

Yes, most aspire to be footballs, and now OF

Following a conversation with my sister on how not one of our peers went on to become a doctor/dentist/engineer/research. Out of a couple of hundred students, I can only think of three that studied nursing/midwifery and a handful wanted to do teaching.

I would not have been interested in any of those roles, regardless of my nationality or who was pushing me. Making people do stuff they’re not interested in is weird.

Kids want high paid jobs for the least amount of work. Blame social media for that. Apparently they're too good to do mere menial jobs but haven't got the inclination to do something useful. Dread to think what it'll look like in 20+ years tbh

Why on earth wasn’t we encouraged to do something useful? Surely as a country there should be some kind of drive to guide kids into doing something useful for society.

I think understanding what ‘something useful’ is for society comes with age, and those conversations can be a bit lost on 16/17/18 year olds. I know it would have been lost on me anyway.

I think in general we need to pull away from the all consuming need to ‘go to uni’. If you want to be a surgeon/nurse/engineer/architect - you should go to uni. You shouldn’t do one of these degrees because you’ve been pushed to do something ‘useful’ for society? A bin man or receptionist or cleaner is useful, and doesn’t require uni.

I think it would be better if more students understood they didn’t need to go to uni (at least not straight away/at 18), and if more bog standard admin/office jobs didn’t insist on uni degrees to get into a job where you just sit in meetings and send emails.

Yes, in some communities.

I often complained about institutional mediocrity at my DC secondary schools. Bright kids were not pushed, and there is a social stigma for boys against caring about marks higher than an B or working hard.

This complaint of mine mortified my DC but I held them to high standards. They each had two older (in their early 70s) teachers at A level who held them to high standards.

My DC did well and went to elite universities. The youngest came home at Xmas and told me I had been right about the institutional mediocrity. The other kids at the elite university were held to different expectations in school than mine were.

being told I was right is a gift I’ll take to my grave

I'm Indian and I agree that they should be pushed more. I've pushed my kids when I think they've been slacking. Sent them to tuition to turn As into A*s and turn 7/8s into 9s.

I've never supported the "oh just let them be happy grades don't matter" mantra.

So you know exactly what 'a couple of hundred' people went on to study? Was there an end of year assembly where everyone's intentions was read out or did you get a written list or something?

Same. But neither wanted to be a doctor, lawyer or engineer so they are doing what they want to do. With top grades though.

My DC are the only people in the entire family on both sides to not be doctors, lawyers or engineers. One regrets her career choice but I expect it will be ok in the end.

I do believe in doing the very best you are capable of.

Well sports scientists / PT are fairly useful in a country with an obesity crisis.

The Private schools will be where you find most of your doctors, dentists etc as they have better careers work, know their friends parents that do those jobs etc.

It's up to parents to expose their children to different things as much as the schools. DD and I were on a low income until fairly recently but education has always been a priority, signing up to Science Festivals and Techathons where she could see careers in action and talk to people. Very few events we went to cost much and most were free. She has very high aspirations, Uni is something we've always spoken about, prospectuses ordered in year 9 for her to look through to get a good idea of what is available before she picked her options. We've stayed in uni accommodation in the summer when on city breaks, regularly visit the nearest uni sports facilities and art gallery and walked around the campus all things done purposefully so she can see herself there and that she would fit in if she decides to go to Uni in the future. And we've discussed alternatives too.

People leave too much up to school, parenting and schooling should supplement eachother.

There's pushing kids to do well and be the best they can be (because not everyone can be the best at everything, we all different skills and talents and levels of capability) and then there's pushing kids into careers such as medicine and dentistry that they don't necessarily want to do. The later I think is particularly prevalent in some cultures where you're not considered successful unless you're in such a job. Things like medicine, nursing, teaching etc are very much jobs that I think most people know they want to do from a young age. Many kids at 16-18 still don't know what they want to do so picking something you enjoy and are good at is the best option at that stage.

It's mostly the job of parents to encourage ambition in their children.

If your kids want to be footballers or on OF or middle management then really, look close to home.

Schools are about education. Wanting a job or career is on the family.

My dad was a doctor. My granddad waa a doctor. My aunts and uncles all doctors. My cousins all doctors.

With Gen Z though pushing them into medicine does not work. I am glad if they work hard in any field.

I actually agree with you. As a mum to a teen and who has spent a lifetime with family from different countries and cultures (I have lots of family across the world) - I have found the collective attitude to school/education/career prospects flat in the UK recently. Maybe it is because teachers have to police what they say more - and gentle and relaxed parenting is trending.

Yes, I can’t generalise - but when I was younger our teachers gave us “tough love”. One of my teachers said to me “I think your too smart to study x, how about doing y” - what I got from this comment (years later, I didn’t value it at the time) is that someone cares enough to direct me.

My daughter is a teen and she is driven academically - but if she didn’t have her own drive, I worry about where else that drive would come from. Our family openly talk about careers and life and why it’s important to think practically about your career and how you are meeting a demand (not just thinking about your dream and striving to being an influencer - but thinking about what society needs and where you fit) and I think that might help. But I have mum friends who have older children and they feel like they are trying to drag out some sense of work ethic - as it’s easier to jump on the next work trend (online currency/entrepreneurship etc) without focusing on a skill and honing it in your early adulthood years.

Come on; most of our behaviour comes from our parents when it comes to work. Schools cannot change that. You want ambitious driven kids then you push them. It's nothing to do with nationality - I think you will find the "oh I don't sweat my kids" is firmly in line with the "don't try too hard mentality" which is in fact a complete act by very self driven people. It's supposed to fool you - more fool you if you take it seriously

Once DC discovers their genuine interest we plan what the best university for their subject would be and what kind of careers it leads to.

My mother gave me a choice of law, accounting, or medicine. She was very dismissive of me doing journalism. I did law and I am grateful that I didn't do journalism. I think she may have got to my eldest son because he did medicine. Of course, my mother was an immigrant.

There are degrees which are quite useless.

However I think the fetishisation of STEM and vocational subjects is problematic. The Arts have their place, whilst not “useful” they are important to society.

I kind of agree. Careers advice is far too wishy washy - more about getting the most kids into the best uni to make the school look good than about what is best for the kids. The "careers" advice rarely seems to extend beyond university applications. Same goes for parents - too much focus on what degree is interesting for 3 years rather than what it could possibly lead to for the next 50 years.

I will always encourage my children, but never push or force. Their happiness is my priority.

I know that at least 2 out of my four children will not go to university. They're bright, but not academic. I imagine they'll do something like an apprenticeship.

I went to university, went into teaching and was (still am!) the only member of my family aside from my aunt, who went to university in her 40s, to go to uni. My brothers went to college or to apprenticeships to learn trades.

Now, they're the ones with the money, jobs they love and good work life balance.

I have to say that some of my software engineer cousins are now finding it hard to get jobs as AI has taken over.
So STEM no longer a magic bullet.

Secondary schools vary massively in the children they have attend them.

There are schools where no students at all pass gcse maths and English.

www.thesun.co.uk/news/32195844/map-reveals-englands-worst-schools/amp/

If you went to one of those schools you'd probably be despairing for the future of the country.

Equally, there are schools where pretty much everyone passes gcse maths and English (and no, they are not all grammars).

Eg Michaela, lots of others have similar.

www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/school/140862/michaela-community-school/secondary

If you went to one of those schools you'd probably feel that school did a good job pushing you and you'd done really well.

I push my kids. Not excessively but I expect them to do good work and get grades that are good for their abilities.
I don't have Kids always achieving A's because they're not that academic and I want them to enjoy their life, socialise and learn skills in other areas.
I do expect B's though.
I've always told them that good grades give them choices, and that's really important.

I unashamedly push my kids. School may tell them that a pass in exams is 50%, but the DC know that our family’s standard of pass is different, and even 95% means you got one in twenty questions wrong. This is up to parents not schools.