Should ‘British’ kids be pushed a bit more?

[Bloodybrambles]

Following a conversation with my sister on how not one of our peers went on to become a doctor/dentist/engineer/research. Out of a couple of hundred students, I can only think of three that studied nursing/midwifery and a handful wanted to do teaching. A few of the ‘clever’ kids went on to do graduate schemes/roles and currently sit in middle management positions.

Our conversation was us having the same thought in school of our country being screwed by looking at our cohort. We’re lucky to have immigration as if the majority of our year flukes the exams and became a doctor, they either wouldn’t have a pen to do the prescription or arguing about having a dress code.

My career advice was somewhat like ‘you’re doing well in your A-levels, you like sport, you should study Sport Science at uni’.

Why on earth wasn’t we encouraged to do something useful? Surely as a country there should be some kind of drive to guide kids into doing something useful for society.

It's true - the selection pressure is pertinent. So often the question about immigrants boils down to "why do people who go somewhere get somewhere?"

All I can say is, IMO the parents of any Asian children often push them rather more. They usually fully expect them to work hard and do well.

Unfortunately there’s a certain cohort of white British kids who seem to find it ‘uncool’ to work hard at school, and sadly there are white British parents who don’t value education, and don’t encourage their children.

In today’s Times there’s a piece about a girl whose parents fled Afghanistan in 2000. She was the first in her family to learn to read and write, and has recently graduated with a master’s degree in human rights law from Bristol University.

IMO it’s tragic to think of Afghan girls who’d love an education but are denied it - and compare them with U.K. kids who just CBA, who are disruptive at school, and just don’t care.

Part of the problem is that schools tend to provide one narrow type of "education" which isn't suited to every child. The type of child who is suited to it will usually thrive and will no doubt be grateful for it. The children for whom that type of education is less useful and in some cases actively harmful are much less likely to be grateful for it.

I'm not sure that comparing British teenagers to Afghan girls is really very useful in many cases. Of course it's awful that they are denied their education and their liberty, but using them as an example, for instance, to an underachieving teenager with ADHD and sensory overwhelm who can't cope with the zero tolerance regime in their huge, noisy secondary school and for whom some other form of education would work much better is somewhat pointless. It's reminiscent of how children with ARFID used to be shamed and force-fed because "there are children in Africa who don't have any food and would be grateful for what you have". Hopefully we're beyond that somewhat patronising approach now.

In your experience what are the career/future do these children and their parents have?

I think we're all also missing a vital point here too - it's easier to do well and achieve excellence in the UK, compared to South Korea, Japan, India, Singapore

Because the competition isn't as high. In these countries, the majority of families push and push and so the uni and job climate is fiercely competitive as a result

For example, I was doing GCSE level maths at around age 9/10. And I was not top of my class. I was average. I don't remember a lot of it! I am not good at it. But it's drilled into you from an eye watering age

Life is more comfortable in the UK. And people are more comfortable with less because 'less' in the UK doesn't mean less like it does in the counties I've mentioned. Extreme, true poverty for the entire family isn't really seen in the UK

it feels like there’s more focus on easier or more “fun” paths, like sports science

Now you see, I don't see a problem with this. My child chose sports science and cookery for his GCSE's. I think he did choose those subjects as they are more practical and that frees his brain up for the science, languages, history, English and maths - which are pretty mentally demanding. I could have pushed him to only take academia/classical subject but they may have been very wrong for him. He knows his limits better than I do.

The way I see it is that education isn't purely for what job you are going to get at the end - it's equally to learn how to live a good life, how to balnce work and play, how to be healthy, a chance to gain social skills, study skills, practical skills. How you apply them beyond school is the crucial part.

A mixture of all skills is very good.

If my child just excelled at maths and piano and ended up housebound due to lack of exercise, unable to cook a proper meal and socially inept, I would feel that I, and the education system had failed him.

I'm a child of immigrants (from a poor-ish country) and don't really recognise the pushiness thing, my parents cared about my education but I wasn't pushed particularly. I did whatever activities I wanted and dropped them when I got bored, spent my teenage years out drinking in parks and sneaking into pubs with the local kids, went to an average uni to do a not particularly "useful" degree (whilst partying some more) and now have a decent job after getting my act together eventually.
Being an immigrant hasn't meant I haven't had mental health problems, I've had plenty of those.
The whole "lazy white Brits vs studious hardworking immigrants" thing is a bit odd to me because there are plenty of badly behaved immigrant/2nd and 3rd gen kids not interested in education, some of them involved in gangs from a young age...it's not like every immigrant kid becomes a doctor or lawyer.
Equally many white British families are very ambitious indeed, for example in my city it's a crazy arms race to buy a house in the right catchment area for the best schools. Once in, they'll push their kids to study and will pay for tutors and the right extra curriculars to get them into a good uni/job.
It's just that they don't talk about it, they'll say "oh I don't care about grades, just want them to be happy" when actually this isn't the case.

It's a thing that people like to say because it makes them feel special. If it were actually true, which it is not.

@toffeeappleturnip I agree that a balanced life is important. Personally, I just want my teenagers think ahead about what their educational choices today will do for them in the future, because they need to be financially self-sufficient. DD (19, for example, likes the good things in life and if she wants to have them in the future, she needs to earn the commensurate salary!

And maybe that's fine. A society where it's ok to be "average" because you can still have a comfortable and fulfilling life. Not one where you are under intense pressure to excel because failure means shame or destitution.

Who really cares about whether children "excel" or not when they leave education? Only them and their parents. The rest of the world judges them based on whether they are competent at their chosen jobs or professions, easy to work with, nice people and good company.

If you mean learning maths at a younger age and rote learning, sure. This isn't what reflects a good education though, more memory skills. I've met plenty of people from other parts of the world who cannot think in any way that isn't referenced to someone else's work. They don't ask questions or investigate anything themselves that might go against the common beliefs.

Suicide rates in these areas of the world are also higher and huge amounts of sexism, which is likely attributable to appx 50% them not being able to achieve...because they are female.

My niece went to Cambridge. She's a vet. Doing very well - apparently you earn more if you treat big animals like horses rather than pets like hamsters. Who knew?

Size matters 😄

Cambridge is a very welcoming place for “obsessives and genius people” but it is by no means only accessible to such people. Otherwise they would never have had me and most of my year. Who include lots of doctors and lawyers, a couple of vets and several accountants! Respectfully, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Doesn’t it stand to reason that large animals are either farm animals so essentially business assets, or the pets of very wealthy people?

We immigrated over here when the girls were years 7 and 9. Something we found, was that kids (and their parents) by this stage seemed to feel that their life path, and achievements and progressions ceilings, were set in stone - by what class they were, what location, what kind of school they went to. And to be fair, it's a pretty bloody ruthless whittling and narrowing down process kids go through over here from a very young age.

We fought very hard for them not to buy into it. Both girls are at RG universities, one of them doing medicine.

Respectfully, Cambridge is academic at its core. You can study law, veterinary science, and medicine there. But all of these subjects have better universities elsewhere. You don't even have to study law at Cambridge to become a solicitor or barrister- you can simply convert from another degree that you've studied there. That's shown by the numbers who do this every year without difficulty and get paid to do it.

For veterinary medicine Edinburgh is better, Imperial better for straight medicine.

Thank you for explaining my own career to me.

Maybe this is the reason the UK is suffering from a productivity gap?

At my school (foreign) they published a list every year in the school paper. 98% went to uni with the remaining military or trade school. Of our 400, one went straight into being a tattoo artist.
No gap years- they weren't really possible then (due to being uninsured), not the case now.

The reality is that we can't all be above-average. Societies need to ensure a decent standard of living for all really. And people are arguably more 'productive' if doing something that interests them, rather than pushed into jobs or professions due to the earning potential or prestige.

The UK lacks a competent school careers service. Too many kids have to rely on parents who are ill equipped to help.

One of the strengths of private schools is they generally have dedicated careers officers, who have up to date information. They organise careers days, get a mix of parents in to talk about their careers, help find works experience for 16 & 17yos, organise sessions with local companies and their apprentice/graduate schemes.

Too often it's left to 'who you know'.

We import farm labourers from overseas every year to deal with harvests whilst British people are unemployed. Some of this is because we devalue manual labour, including agricultural labour. We employ overseas lorry drivers because of a shortfall in British drivers. The problem isn't "a society where it's OK to be 'average'" because we aren't actually in that society. If it was actually OK to be average, farm labourers and lorry drivers would be respected and people wouldn't think that kind of work was beneath them.

When I was at primary school and kids got distracted and stopped working, my teacher would threaten us with only being fit to work emptying bins when we grew up unless we knuckled down to the work. What kind of message does that give to the people who work on bin lorries about how much they and their work are valued? If the bins don't get emptied, it rapidly becomes a public health crisis.

The people stacking shelves, cleaning loos, and emptying bins are doing needed work. It shouldn't be a matter of shame to do those jobs instead of becoming a surgeon.

Does anyone leave school thinking "you know what, I dream of becoming a careers advisor"? Lack of motivation for the job might explain the lack of competence.

The poster you are responding to said the UK lacks a competent CAREERS SERVICE. Emphasis on service. I would agree. State schools are underfunded and so many do not employ professional career advisors. Often other members of staff are pulled in to talk about progression but that is not the same as Careers guidance. Careers guidance is often poorly paid for a job which requires a degree and a postgraduate qualification.

The vast majority actual careers advisors I know are incredibly dedicated, knowledgeable and yes, competent.