Thread 15 Starmer - Nolite te bastardes carborundorum

[DuncinToffee]

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https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5244293-thread-14-starmer-the-starmeristas-strike-back?page=40&reply=141334312

The solution is, as always, addressing the deep rooted inequality in UK society. Stop letting young girls (and boys) grow up in squalor and chaos and the rest will follow. Of course that is a massive undertaking which would involve affordable housing, jobs that pay enough to live on, education that improves life chances (including high quality vocational education), companies training up their own staff, excellent healthcare including early diagnosis and support for neurdiversity and mental health, a complete change in the UK approach towards addiction. It's a mind blowingly huge job.

Focusing on ethnicity is a massive red herring, though supporting immigrants with language learning would be a massive positive.

"I pay my taxes. They buy me civilisation".

And yes - that does mean (no mealy mouthed "implying") it means that any country that has low taxes but a high standard of living is uncivilised. As the slave workers of the middle east would attest to. If they were allowed.

I saw an interesting video yesterday. Some Americans were asking how come Canada - which is supposed to be "poor" in Trump land - has a better standard of living than US states with higher GDP.

Ah @pointythings , what a lovely post , and, very wise.

Indian construction workers went to the Middle East to earn a better wage than in their home country and then earn in a currency pegged to the dollar and they then send it home to their rural villages. They make that choice because construction in India is probably no safer and the pay is even worse.
We have allowed thousands of cheap Chinese made vapes to be sold here at potentially huge health cost and also disposable vapes are bad for the environment. We also allow very cheap mass made goods into the country produced all over the world in similar conditions.
So I doubt we are any better.

Sweden which has a more equal society than us is also experiencing issues with criminal gangs now.

Some rich people like Rowling and Sheeren pay their taxes willingly. Others dodge and scam.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68093172.amp

Shame engineering is such a poorly regarded subject in the UK. Proved by the fact that if I was to ramble on about hysteresis few would cotton on.

When work started being offshored in the 90s, some people noted that the process would only go so far until workforce in the off shore countries started being able to exert a supply and demand pressure on the markets. Then you would have offshore companies hiking their rates in order to attract their staff which would be passed onto the UK (or US) based customer.

Until their prices were no cheaper than doing it onshore.

Things were accelerated when MS, Google and Apple snapped up the very top tier of talent which drove up wages below.

This lead to a spell of onshoring, as some companies decided it was cheaper (and less risky ....) to keep the work within reach.

Less risky ? Having managed 5 offshore teams in my time, I can tell you that the quality of coding is not that efficient. And the resources needed to manage teams is exponential. 2 coders being 4 times as much effort as 1 to manage.

Companies who have retained the skills the had managing offshore teams - had they kept them (they didn't) - would be ideally placed to manage the tsunami of "AI" manure that is being pumped out of everywhere at the moment.

Todays hilarious "AI" fail was a Tesla Chatbot replying to a very sarcastic post I made about Musky Muskness, saying (quote)

"Thanks for the love and support always ,fans like you are the reason we keep going kindly inbox me directly on here
"

It's interesting that - despite fine words - lawyers and moneymen have zero trust in Trump whatsoever.

This will be problematic as we move forwards. This is what happens when the smart people hit the cloud of ignorance that is MAGA.

It was also a very smart move by the Biden administration to tackle this as a law, rather than EO. Because as little Donnie Trump has just found out (?) you can't undo a law with an EO. He will have to go through congress. And at the moment that looks very unlikely with the number of factions all grifting for themselves.

In a way, The US 2025-2028 will seem vaguely familiar to people who survived the UK 2017-2019.

In which case they are doomed to fail.

They won't win with just the nutters. They need to attract the moderates - the people who were appalled by the Tory drift to the right and either voted Labour or LibDem (remember how well they did ?). And those people were mainly drawn from the bulk of people who never wanted Brexit.

Look carefully at Farage. I admit he has cunningly crafted a face that makes it a deeply unpleasant task, but with enough tequila it can be done. He is very very slowly forgetting to remind us he is #MrBrexit. In fact I can't recall him ever taking credit for the phenomenal success it has been. Moreover - even with $100million (chinny reckon) at stake he continues to keep Tate and Robinson (odd that such scumbags have a jammy sugar nomenclature ?) well outside Reform. Because he knows if he started explaining to us how Stephen Yaxley-Lennon is really a misunderstood genius he would lose ten times as many Reformers as he would gain.

It's incredibly easy to look good on paper until you actually have to fight an election. And remember that last week Reform "lost" 10 councillors who feel that Nige ain't nasty enough. Doesn't bode well for a national campaign. Especially when one of your core founder members is now an ex-pat.

@SerendipityJane - do you think Nigel Farage actually really deeply cares about Brexit? Because typically, men of his ilk, only care about their own ego, success for themselves, their legacy and they only jump on whatever ideology they can find, to get them to the top and in charge. The substance of what they are selling is neither here nor there, typically.

do you think Nigel Farage actually really deeply cares about Brexit?

Of course I don't. Only an idiot would.

Right now, the stars are moving so that the best way forward for Nige, is to be swept along on the mass of people who hated Brexit. So it's good for the Faragemeister to give off the impression that had he been in charge, Brexit would have been marvellous. However he wasn't because the evil Tories hijaked the cause. Eventually I am quite prepared to watch Nigel read the Brexit funeral rites.

It would be a stretch to much to think he'd become "#MrRejoin". But I can easily see him using the failure of Brexit to advance his own career. Especially as the US project is looking a little too much like Germany 1933. And Nigel didn't get where he is today by misreading the lessons of history. Why do you think he's kept his extra-UK citizenship and Brussels bolthole.

And you were warned about the alliteration. Well warned.

https://www.cfpublic.org/2025-01-19/steve-bannon-says-maga-populism-will-win-as-trump-is-surrounded-by-billionaires

This kind of explains most of it. The created tensions between the local working classes and the tech billionaires/rich - what is termed the US “oligarchs”.

Populism works brilliantly. Until it doesn't. And the transition between banners on poles to heads on spikes can be measured in days if things are really bad.

@SerendipityJane - is that a metaphor?
This is not 1917 Russia - they all have private jets to get out quickly, including Trump himself. Trump being a Farage type as well, having a back-up plan, I am quite sure of it.

On the whole Reform question, it is a catch 22. As more moderate people come to believe they may actually have a chance of getting somewhere in the next election, they may well join to do some damage control from the inside? They may well rationalise according to the lines above, that Farage is a self serving idiot anyway rather than this being outright crazy right wing ideology, so if he got this far, better control the narrative.
It is exactly why everyone is now sliming up to Trump and all the tech billionaires are suddenly on his side. If you cannot work against him, work with him.

It is just incredible how much "air " the BBC and other media give to the Reform party.
5 MP's for goodness sake.
We live in strange times.
(I know it is because the Cons. party is more or less toast but still, 5 MP's.)
Just want them to ask him about Brexit .

It is 5 male MPs and they will need men and women and some diversity. Even Trump has some diversity.
The real problem here is that a whole lot of successful people who have not built a life time in politics may well be tempted. It is a new idea and new party and cuts out the career politician idea. So they may implode on their own bile or it could morph into something completely different.

I know. But they always have given the Nicotine Frog a lot of airtime. He was regularly on Question Time in the run up to Brexit.

Flipping the telescope it's interesting how poorly Reform are doing despite the Farage Show being the BBCs staple output (and the existence of GB "News").

Well they've already lost a few councillors. More than the "careless" two.

Also they aren't really a political party. They are a company controlled by Nigel Farage who gets to decide everything about it himself. No one else has any say.

Who remembers Ross Perot ?

Blaming a certain section of society for everything bad is not a new idea, it is the oldest trick in the book.

Do you support Reform? You almost sound like you want it to progress.

The distribution of intelligence is a mathematical fact.

Well that is always the challenge of a democracy.

Reform has "gained" a councillor on Glasgow City Council - and immediately halved the number of Conservative councillors

As far as I am aware, the Scots have only ever voted in one UKIP/Brexit Party and that was the odious David Coburn, who only got in as the 4th candidate of the d'Hondt PR system (might even have been as "last man standing").

No, of course I do not support Reform in its current manifestation, whatsoever. Do I like the idea of a brand new far better party than much of what we have seen in the last few years? Perhaps. Doesn’t everyone want something better and want to believe things can get better?
Do I believe in Make Britain Great Again, no - it is more like accept your position in the world pecking order and make things better again for the many.

The reason I bring up Dubai or Taiwan (eg TSM) would be because I do believe we have to find our own version of success, somehow. It won’t be precision semiconductors, for sure, but there has to be some things we are very good at to position ourselves given our size.

@Araminta1003 - I think you are spot on, and there is some thinking on this by others. The UK and Switzerland should be learning from each other and we should be looking at examples of countries with particular industries which are a success.

The UK does have some fantastic strengths. Its university sector is strong. Pharmaceutical development. Financial services. Legal services. Insurance. Software development. Engineering. It is not lack of ability.

These are all great things for the UK. What worries me is that the narrative we seem to have about our future is related to the past, deindustruslisation is not going to be reversed. We are not going to have mass factories manned by people. We will use refined industrial processes ie steel.

We need to get very realistic about employment and what is needed to generate high wages. The Swiss are absolutely on point with what suits them, what they need and what will make them money.

Like you say, the UK does not seem to have a plan. I hope Labour can do better than the Tories who were just idle. The last lot were the thickest and most indolent I have ever known.

I would probably be tougher on immigration, nationality and granting visas. I don't approve of shipping in the world to meet our failures in education and employment. I would be much harder on benefits - the current system is a ticket to doing little. I don't blame individuals for working out they are better off. That is human nature. But there needs to be a lot of reform.