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Thread 15 Starmer - Nolite te bastardes carborundorum

1000 replies

DuncinToffee · 13/01/2025 17:48

Previous thread

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5244293-thread-14-starmer-the-starmeristas-strike-back?page=40&reply=141334312

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58
Alexandra2001 · 17/01/2025 21:13

Over the course of this Parliament, VAT on School fees will raise around 6 billion, according to the IFS....

Where that 6 billion come from if not from VAT ?

Its 6 billion net, after accounting for additional children in the state sector.

CruCru · 17/01/2025 21:17

I always think the assertion that people who choose private school do so because they want to make connections to benefit their children is a bit of a weird one. People who are obviously on the lookout for others who can benefit them will turn people off - regardless of which school the children go to.

Have you ever had a friend who only wants to meet you for a coffee when she wants a favour? And after a while your heart sinks when you see a message from her? Private school parents don’t enjoy those people any more than state school parents.

cardibach · 17/01/2025 21:22

Araminta1003 · 17/01/2025 20:54

I think the real privilege is if you have an excellent local state school where your DC can thrive, make lots of local friends, attend local clubs.
I think the connections thing is a fallacy, Perhaps for kids in boarding schools because they have to, forcibly, make each other quasi family so it becomes a brotherhood or sisterhood bond. However, surely peer on peer “connections” at university will always be far more significant, so for connections it really has to be the top universities. In reality, it’s the parental demographic that has the connections, not the 15 year olds.

And finally, I reckon people pay for different reasons like family or cultural expectations, genuine need like SEND or local underperforming option or not getting into the sought after local school.

So no, I don’t think feeling you have to pay all that money plus some now and work extra hard to fund it, is a privilege. But I appreciate the very differing views on the subject.

In reality, I am far more interested in the human rights act aspect in all of this and recent policies by the executive that have been challenged and the whole parliament is sovereign question.

We’ll have to disagree on this one. Peiple pay because they think they are buying something better than the free alternative. We can argue all day about why it might be better, but they th8nk it is. And not everyone can buy it. There’s the privilege.

cardibach · 17/01/2025 21:24

CruCru · 17/01/2025 21:17

I always think the assertion that people who choose private school do so because they want to make connections to benefit their children is a bit of a weird one. People who are obviously on the lookout for others who can benefit them will turn people off - regardless of which school the children go to.

Have you ever had a friend who only wants to meet you for a coffee when she wants a favour? And after a while your heart sinks when you see a message from her? Private school parents don’t enjoy those people any more than state school parents.

Not everyone can afford it.
Nobody would pay it if they didn’t think it was better than the free at the point of use alternative.
There’s the privilege.
I’m astounded anyone is trying to suggest it doesn’t buy advantage.

Piggywaspushed · 17/01/2025 21:26

My DS played high level cricket including tournaments against very fancy Eton pre preps. Those people sure bought connections. They were perfectly pleasant but their worlds had different oxygen.

PickAChew · 17/01/2025 22:47

Araminta1003 · 17/01/2025 19:59

By privilege do you mean selection? Only being with others who can primarily pay? Is that a privilege?

To pay 20k plus per year and 40 per cent tax plus VAT on top?
It isn’t tax efficient from a parental point of view whatsoever.

Or is the privilege in the education itself? Is it actually that much better than all state schools? (I doubt it) or is it in the extracurricular offering, typically?

All the studies show that good education is down to quality of actual teaching primarily. Which can be excellent in many state schools.

Well exactly, so paying is a choice and parents who don't want to pay tax for their children's education don't have to pay tax for their children's education.

Araminta1003 · 18/01/2025 07:22

“My DS played high level cricket including tournaments against very fancy Eton pre preps. Those people sure bought connections. They were perfectly pleasant but their worlds had different oxygen.“

But surely schools are just a symptom of the cause. Like you said, they would form cricket clubs together and other ways to mingle regularly and they will all join Whites etc and meet up in their country houses or French chateau or Scottish castle anyway, even if these schools were completely banned? And for the truly rich, eventually they would all homeschool in groups like in the olden days so what is the point of all of this.

Piggywaspushed · 18/01/2025 07:31

I get your point but the school is what helped them channel their children to Eton and Harrow and then onwards to PPE at Oxford and etc.. There is the expression 'old school tie' after all.

Alexandra2001 · 18/01/2025 07:52

CruCru · 17/01/2025 21:17

I always think the assertion that people who choose private school do so because they want to make connections to benefit their children is a bit of a weird one. People who are obviously on the lookout for others who can benefit them will turn people off - regardless of which school the children go to.

Have you ever had a friend who only wants to meet you for a coffee when she wants a favour? And after a while your heart sinks when you see a message from her? Private school parents don’t enjoy those people any more than state school parents.

My brother sent his children to PS precisely for the types of people his kids would meet, they also got a fantastic education, sporting opportunites and of course "connections"

It will of course depend on the school, your small local PS, with cheaper fees etc isn't going to attract the same sort of people as say a Milfield or Winchester.

The whole debate on fees is about the wealthy not want to pay tax.

Piggywaspushed · 18/01/2025 08:16

Yes, I find it 101% unlikely that the people I described above would send their children to any state school even if it was truly brilliant. They know what extras their fees are getting (including, as it goes, close relationship with teachers - whoops 'masters' who then can write personally to the Oxford college their offspring apply to recommend their DC). It's a literal Private Members' Club.

This doesn't apply to the school DH works in to the same extent (once called the most expensive comp in England!) so there are shades - but aforementioned DS was pretty much sidelined in his cricket team by those boys who all went to the two local private schools, particularly the more expensive one.

People I speak to who send their kids private and my own experiences tell me that the thing expensive private education buys is a way of speaking , behaving and navigating the world - a kind of super confidence that state schools do not have time or curriculum room or class sizes or pastoral and extra curricular (or co curricular whatever that means) space to enable. And also Ofsted and league tables and shizzle.

Full disclosure - I went to a very highly regarded private school in Glasgow (on a bursary if it matters) . There were reasons for this tied up in moving house. I had brilliant teaching and opportunities. It really is a genuinely excellent school. And there were lots of different types of people there but vanishingly few people from really ordinary backgrounds. There was a definite divide in the school, between the people who started aged 12 ish from a state school and those who had been at the school from aged 5. The school is very very cash rich.

Even though I went to a fee paying school, I and my friend who went to a genuinely posh Edinburgh school had backs actually turned on us in the first week of university by some young women who went to a small set of south England based public schools.

Grumpyoldpersonwithcats · 18/01/2025 08:42

Call me a cynical old bastard if you wish (and people I know in RL do) but I think that a key driver for many people going private is to keep their children away from the 'riff-raff'.

Zonder · 18/01/2025 09:29

Piggywaspushed · 17/01/2025 21:26

My DS played high level cricket including tournaments against very fancy Eton pre preps. Those people sure bought connections. They were perfectly pleasant but their worlds had different oxygen.

Is this a typo @Piggywaspushed ? Pre preps are basically Reception and KS1 so not usually high level cricket.

Araminta1003 · 18/01/2025 09:33

“Call me a cynical old bastard if you wish (and people I know in RL do) but I think that a key driver for many people going private is to keep their children away from the 'riff-raff'.”

You get the same in the state sector.

In case anyone remembers this? Eleanor Palmer is of course the Camden primary schools Sir Keir Starmer’s kids went to.

www.hamhigh.co.uk/news/education/21369589.kentish-town-columnist-giles-coren-rants-camden-parents-rent-homes-win-school-places/

Piggywaspushed · 18/01/2025 09:35

Zonder · 18/01/2025 09:29

Is this a typo @Piggywaspushed ? Pre preps are basically Reception and KS1 so not usually high level cricket.

Not a typo! It's part of the exclusivity you see! I was outing myself by using the wrong words....

BIossomtoes · 18/01/2025 09:40

While I have very little time for the ever petulant Giles Coren, he does have a point.

BIWI · 18/01/2025 09:41

The connections thing is very real. The 'Old Boy Network'. Gets you access to all manner of things - Oxbridge, clubs, internships, jobs, etc - and that's part of what people are (or think they are) buying.

Friend of mine, whose DC went to a top private school, was aghast (and very cross) when certain universities (can't remember which ones now) started to talk about favouring candidates from state schools. She was very overt about their expectations from buying her DC a private education.

I'm pretty sure that the quality of education in private schools must be hugely variable - although I think the assumption on the part of parents who choose them is that it must be better. However, almost even the 'least best' of those schools will have better facilities and equipment, and much smaller classes, than the nearest state school.

Araminta1003 · 18/01/2025 09:43

In reality @blossomtoes there really are only a handful of properly elite private schools and elite state schools and these people, on both ends, will always find each other.
I bet the Dutch state school PP mentioned that the royal attended is full of middle class and upper middle class rich Dutch people too.

pointythings · 18/01/2025 10:34

Araminta1003 · 18/01/2025 09:43

In reality @blossomtoes there really are only a handful of properly elite private schools and elite state schools and these people, on both ends, will always find each other.
I bet the Dutch state school PP mentioned that the royal attended is full of middle class and upper middle class rich Dutch people too.

Oh, it absolutely is. But you have to remember that the class system isn't really a thing in the Netherlands any more - WW2 put paid to that. Social and economic inequality exists, but it is less and it isn't structured along the lines of an outdated class system in the way that it is in the UK. Your class identifiers really don't apply all that much in the Netherlands.

DuncinToffee · 18/01/2025 10:42

Nobody is denying there isn't selection in the state school system; postcode, religion, tutoring

Private school is a choice, not a human right.

And schools don't have to charge the 20% to parents, doing so is also a choice.

14 years of underfunding that affect 93%, the gap between state and private widening

So pay another fee increase or go state.

OP posts:
SerendipityJane · 18/01/2025 10:46

"Connections" didn't do Mr. Gullis much good, it seems.

The comments are universally unsympathetic and remind us how vile Tory rule is.

Thread 15 Starmer - Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
DuncinToffee · 18/01/2025 10:50

Even state schools aren't that desperate for teachers.

OP posts:
pointythings · 18/01/2025 10:52

SerendipityJane · 18/01/2025 10:46

"Connections" didn't do Mr. Gullis much good, it seems.

The comments are universally unsympathetic and remind us how vile Tory rule is.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Now I must be off, got a tiny violin to look for.

bombastix · 18/01/2025 10:55

SerendipityJane · 18/01/2025 10:46

"Connections" didn't do Mr. Gullis much good, it seems.

The comments are universally unsympathetic and remind us how vile Tory rule is.

How throughly deserved. Odious man.

Araminta1003 · 18/01/2025 10:58

Actually wouldn’t if be amazing if all MPs had to do training and work experience on a 6 monthly basis in the NHS (as eg porters) and as TAs in state schools, before getting the right to stand as an MP. Like a training contract. And perhaps add in waste collection.

Zonder · 18/01/2025 11:01

And schools don't have to charge the 20% to parents, doing so is also a choice.

This is overlooked all the time. Especially when you bear in mind that the upside of the tax change is that PS can now offset lots of purchases. So they shouldn't be passing the full whack on to parents - that means overall they are making money on the tax change.

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