Thread 15 Starmer - Nolite te bastardes carborundorum

[DuncinToffee]

Previous thread

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5244293-thread-14-starmer-the-starmeristas-strike-back?page=40&reply=141334312

I am surprised by the number of frontline health staff who don't get flu or Covid vaccines.

Anecdotally, I am the only teacher I have asked in my school who has had the flu jab. And there are loads of kids and adults coughing everywhere and off with 'flu like symptoms'. And my school refunds the cost. This costs the school money but nothing like as much as high levels of absence does.

I won’t have the pneumonia vaccine because it confers life long immunity. Given that it’s very likely that I’ll get dementia I might be very glad to get pneumonia one day. It’s not called “the old man’s friend” for nothing.

Whilst there may be some vaccine distrust, there is also a massively increasing vitamin industry. It is one of the global growth areas. Steady increases year on year.

No, its not enough staff, beds, doctors, wards....

I ve yet to hear of such dire conditions in other developed countries?

Its just yet more excuses for an NHS that has been left to rot.

Pharmacies, if they can get the vaccine, are charging a lot more than £10, hasn't been that for years.

I think Badenoch has been pretty terrible at PMQs. I can only hope she improves. The Tory party can’t field a great deal of talent while it remains so shrunken.

Starmer has failed to answer anything (I don’t blame him for that - all PMs do it) but has proved incredibly petulant (which I do think should be criticised) and is very wooden. Everyone can see that. He’s quickly become a very unattractive PM.

As for the NHS, funding’s gone up in real terms under the Tories. I don’t know why the NHS is performing so badly, but it’s not for lack of money.

Even Labour says the NHS must change.

If you wanted to point to a definite Tory failure you should have picked the prisons. When Labour announced early release and a serious look at penal policy I posted on here that I supported that and that the previous government had let it get to a shocking state, despite some new prison building.

What bothers me most about Labour, as you probably know, is its claims to be more morally upright than others. That’s complete bullshit, as we’re seeing daily. They’ve misled the country.

I’ve said many times that I can respect arguments of political difference - essentially Labour’s instincts towards state control v Conservative instincts towards market control - but I reject the presentation of left-wing politics as being more ethical and honest, either in application of policy or in the conduct of Labour politicians.

The NHS is an interesting one. Nightingales spring to mind. Even if there were tons of beds, unless you have a lot of qualified staff, it means nothing. We have failed to attract and train enough of our own staff for many years. We have relied on importing doctors from all over the world and nurses too. It will only get worse if working conditions are not improved.
I do not know a single doctor who works for the NHS who does not complain about its peculiarities and inefficiencies. And there are 30 plus in my group of friends and family working for the NHS.

It is not simply staff shortages is it.
It's the long term failure to invest in infrastructure, equipment and IT.
£11.6 bn to patch up the NHS estate alone.
Using capital budgets to shore up to day to day expenses.
Fewer beds than we had even a decade ago.
A decade of austerity and avoiding dealing with social care.

As for the NHS, funding’s gone up in real terms under the Tories. I don’t know why the NHS is performing so badly, but it’s not for lack of money

Its most definitely lack of money, real terms increases mean nothing if they do not match demand, so we've had huge increases in migration over the last 10 or 15 years and an aging and less healthy population.

Also and its the most important aspect, Medical Inflation outstrips CPI by approx two fold.

This lack of resources is now causing additional problems, patients don't get the full care they require, are discharged too soon either from Hospital or from community services and go back into AE/Hospital again.

Prisons? of course, Roads too, the cost of not just resurfacing our road network but now in many cases, a complete rebuild, will be 100s of billions...just to fill pot holes is estimated to be 11 billion....

Austerity may have a saved some money, though thats debatable but its long term costs are incalculable.

I do agree with you on ethics etc, human nature rears its ugly head whatever the political persuasion but on policy, we can see that 14 years of the Tories has been a complete and utter disaster.

But for me, the mystery is why do you still support them?

‘Austerity’ was forced on the coalition. It wasn’t a choice. Whether it had the Armageddon outcomes that the left goes on about I rather doubt though.

In any case, it looks like Reeves has managed to get herself in the same position. Labour’s already cut one welfare payment. There’ll be a lot more of that.

I don’t object to these cuts, by the way. I just want people to be honest about it.

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/data-and-charts/nhs-budget-nutshell

Over many years - 60/70s spending by Labour was less? Labour spent loads during the economic financial boom under Blair, because there was the money to spend? You cannot spend more unless the economic growth is there?
Where is the money going to come from? What would people like to see cut instead? The NHS budget is huge already.

The consensus is that there is likely no one reason or factor behind the drop in productivity in the NHS. Instead, commentary points to a number of different factors. These include the lack of investment in capital and technology which means staff are working with outdated equipment in buildings that are not fit for purpose and the NHS having a comparably low ratio of managers to overall staff, which means there is less time and expertise to think through how to streamline processes. Higher staff sickness absence rate alongside industrial action has seen increased low morale and staff burnout, while turnover rates of experienced members of staff means more newer staff who may be less familiar with processes and require more training. There are also problems with hospital flow, contributing to rising numbers of people waiting longer to be seen in A&E but also delayed discharges, while patients are also sicker and have more complex needs leading to longer length of stay in hospital.

www.kingsfund.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/data-and-charts/productivity-nhs-health-care-sector

The problem is they already squeezed as much out of the young with making them pay for uni? We cannot keep making the young and workers pay for the older generation’s health all bells and whistles, when they have most of the assets? Triple lock.
Unfortunately I think we are the kind of cross roads where there is a generational conflict?

But for me, the mystery is why do you still support them?

Because I believe in conservative politics. The Tories need refreshing, certainly, and if a new broadly conservative party is needed (i.e. not Reform) then so be it.

When this government is thrown out - it will be at some point - because enough people think it’s failed and is untrustworthy will you stop voting Labour for good?

That might be the case if there was an age limit on paying tax. Increasingly older people who can afford to are paying for elective surgery for age related conditions like cataract surgery and hip and knee replacements. It’s tedious to see this argument rehearsed constantly on MN. It’s long been known that demand for healthcare is greatest at the beginning and end of life.

Also, shortage of doctors is throughout many countries in Europe?
https://www.euronews.com/health/2024/02/05/germanys-health-crisis-why-europes-biggest-economy-is-fending-off-a-chronic-doctor-shortag

Ageing population, Covid burnout, tough job little pay compared to tech/banking/law etc
People need to look after their own health as much as possible, take vitamins, exercise, get jabs and AI tech developments, smart watches, gene analysis may be the future? People should spend on their own health to the extent they can rather than just relying on the state?

And the social care.

If you can’t get patients discharged there are no beds to move people that need admitting from A&E to. Which means you don’t have the bed space in A&E to put the people you are currently treating, which means you can’t offload ambulances.

There are hospitals in other countries that are struggling but it’s probably on a different scale to what we are seeing. The number of doctors/nurses/beds per capita has been decreasing here and was lower than in other places here before. The fact you can only get a Covid jab here if you pay £100 unless in an increasingly narrow group compared to being free and recommended for anyone over the age of 5 almost certainly isn’t helping.

It also so wasn’t helping that over the last 14 years we’ve been running hospitals at increasing high capacity during the non winter months so there isn’t a lot of give in the system.

There have definitely been worse flu years than this numbers wise but I don’t remember anything like the chaos we have at the moment.

But what is "Conservative" politics? One Nation Conservatism or the UKIP/Reform version we have now, that backs Trump and doesn't believe in Climate change?

Its my belief that should Lab fail, the electorate will vote in a Reform government, the Tories wont benefit.

Well, i don't support Labour as such, or not this version, on public services and social issues i'm much more to the left.
Modern Labour would be a centre right party in mainland Europe.

However, i do back them over the Tories, who had 14 years to show us what Conservatism can do for the UK and what a mess they made of it.

If Labour are also a failure, i wont vote for them, whether it would be for good? would depend on policy and personnel.

Austerity was a choice. By saying otherwise we are accepting that the country is and has no need for decision makers. That it will run itself regardless. This is not true. We need public services to function as a society, how they are delivered (or not in the last 14 years) is a choice. The previous government were happy to divert funds into the pockets of the likes of Michelle Mone, this was a choice.

For what its worth, I am pretty left wing and I think we "need" a conservative party. Its not that I think they have a point as such, more that you need a mix of views and ideas to function well. Not only because a one party state would be bad since some people would feel unrepresented. But because no-one knows everything and no "type" of person knows everything. I tried explaining that in real life once and the person I was talking to thought I was basically admitting my ideas were idealistic/childish and I needed tory types to be the "adults". Its not that.
So yes, I do really hope that the conservatives sort themselves out and become a decent opposition. Its better for politics in general if all the main political parties are functional/non corrupt etc.

No one should be planning to rely on the state for an adequate pension or healthcare. We are moving fast into top up culture for both.

Demographics command it. There was no pot saved for these things, and all these objectionable migrants are, with the residual population working, supporting the pensions and health system.

It's worth reflecting that the NHS does more than 50 years ago. Pensions also pay out for longer from the state.

I don't agree with the argument about austerity. It seems to me have crippled the UK long term at the point when debt was extremely cheap (partly by government design). We should have invested in our infrastructure then. But now the same action will cost us far more. And the task is far bigger.

What should worry us all is that working population is smaller and sicker than a generation ago. And that is not a coincidence given the decisions made in the last 15 years.

Dentistry, social care, pensions, elective surgery... the list of what the individual will pay will grow. I don't think Labour can change that with a much more progressive tax policy, and on assets. Income tax is broken.

We need a robust opposition. It doesn’t have to be Conservative.

Badenoch is going to tell everyone today that the non-deal Brexit was a big mistake

File that one under no shit sherlock

https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/news-item/what-was-austeritys-toll-on-the-nhs-before-the-pandemic

This hightlights impact of nine years of austerity on the NHS and to my mind where we are now.

'Austerity was not a choice'! FFS, economists and political commentators don't believe that. Unless you want to put the adjective ideological in front of it, in which case I'd agree.

See, for example, the USA and Obama.

I paid £12 this year in Tescos.