What do you think are the things that hold women back at work?what could be done to improve things ?

[JennyTals]

This is actually a homework question, but I thought we could come with some good ideas, personally I think it's all fairly equal up until the point of getting pregnant and having children
Well that was my experience

Things I think hold fairness/equality back are

The huge expectations on women to not only work, but to do the lions share of the work at home with cleaning cooking shopping childcare And School stuff

Lack of childcare in workplaces like nursery's

Cost of childcare

Employers don't really like it when women take time off for mat leave and sick children etc thye might not say anything but they often don't like it
Men tend to take less sick days for poorly kids

If the children have issues the mothers tend to get blamed more

I think it starts so early.

My oldest is year 1 and already starting to say boys can do x and girls can't because they're girls.

My youngest is only 3 and when we were singing 'when Santa got stuck up the chimney' she kept singing boys and girls rather than girls and boys, kept correcting her/singing it right. One day she said 'its hard to remember mummy because boys are just always first'.

So if that's the message they're getting in pre-school/this early then it's a tough ditch to crawl out of by the time women become mothers.

Yh, that's an interesting point. I wonder whether there's an element of the employer assuming that a woman who pushes to get to exec level is going to be less likely than a more junior employee to want to ease off once becoming a parent. Certainly there's more chance that the woman will continue as the primary earner if she outearns her partner. We see this fairly regularly on here where the man wfh or part time and does the school run etc as his career is less financially lucrative to the family.

Thanks!

I don't always do nights as I'm happy on current salary and have a good balance, but it certainly bumps up my wage considerably. After fighting through the city traffic daily it's nice to have the odd few weeks where you're driving on empty roads and not constantly watching like a hawk for Deliveroo drivers (who often seem to have a death wish).

Crap employers, crap government policies, and (going by mumsnet threads) crap male partners who won’t pull their weight.

Interesting. What level are we talking about? Because I think at a fairly senior level, I can see this being true as companies are scrambling around trying to improve their percentage of women in leadership positions so a childless, competent, mid-level women could, I imagine, be promoted pretty rapidly.

But I'm less convinced of its veracity (anecdotally) at the lower end?

Also, @ShirkingFromHome95 I think the truck driver one is another interesting example of where there's the theory of how this shouldn't be an issue of sex, but that it's a bit more nuanced.

For a start, I seem to recall that "unskilled" labour roles - ie jobs that do not require specific training and/or for which training can be received on the job or as part of the job - where the roles are traditionally held by men are better paid. Truck driver, garbage collector vs cleaner for example. Or in the case of roles for which qualifications are easier to obtain and/or via apprenticeships, the same happens - childcare vs plumbing, for example. So trucking absolutely would be higher paid but there's a complex dynamic around how it was decided the pay for that job int he first place.

Then theres the reality of women doing these roles. You are proof that they absolutely CAN do them. But there are barriers. the culture might be one, for many women. You suggest that the cold/dark/rain might be one - I think you're probably right but again, I wonder how we can solve for this before it even comes up by making women more robust. And don't even get me started on women being less likely to drive or feel comfortable driving - I have long-held theories on the way women are taught to drive vs men.

Then there's also just the practicalities. How many women on here do we see who can't even make it to a gym class or to meet a friend for a drink on time because their partners refuse to commit to getting home at a certain time? Ifyou have a job as a night worker and you have children, you need a partner who will reliably be at home and who will reliably actually step up to do the childcare etc. This 100% SHOULD be a normal, perfectly easy and doable factor but again, because of the deep seated issues we all know exist, it's often very very difficult for a woman to have this reliability backing her up.

@ShirkingFromHome95
But I agree it's probs sector dependent. However, I do notice a chicken/egg sort of dynamic. Maybe even a self fulfilling prophecy in some sectors where women will complain about the lack of diversity whilst simultaneously not wanting to work in that sector. I get £300 a night as a truck driver working on HS2 but none of my friends like the idea of getting muddy and working outside in the rain etc.

This is the issue vocational jobs, the very fact they are vocational is part of the lack of diversity and we can't fully expect them to fill quotas like other more mixed industries because of that nature. I've never been all that comfortable with diversity quotas either to be honest, they are too simplistic.

I do think though that complaining that many vocational industries are much less diverse than most is a bit pointless, That only 16% of employees in farming is women for example, isn't all that surprising, like other vocations, it's physically and mentally demanding, requires extraordinary commitment and skills in ways most, men and women of all kinds, couldn't cope with for long. You could say similar for many other industries.

Everyone who wants to and has an aptitude for vocational work should have a fair chance of joining and progressing in the industry they want to join. All we require is a fair chance to do that kind of work and to progress in that industry. That only a small amount of women and minorities occupy positions in these vocational industries is more complex than just lack of diversity and much more to do with out societal and cultural influences, physicality/mentality, and desire to work in them. I think we lose sight of the other factors when looking solely through the prism of diversity.

For a start, I seem to recall that "unskilled" labour roles - ie jobs that do not require specific training and/or for which training can be received on the job or as part of the job - where the roles are traditionally held by men are better paid. Truck driver, garbage collector vs cleaner for example.

I agree in principle although trucking is distinct from the other two examples in that you can't be trained on the job. You need to obtain the licence first. Granted, you can obtain a HGV licence with a few days training but once you get into the construction side they're generally looking for two years driving experience. When you're talking about working on live motorway lanes etc they usually want to see at least two years in that specific area.

For my current role I needed a MPQC (Mineral Products Qualifications Council) card, a FORS (Fleet Operator Recognition Scheme) Silver level qualification, and to have undertaken various courses from Balfour Beatty Vinci, Tarmac, and also others like the Safe Urban Driving course. And to operate a concrete mixer there's a lot more stuff - it's typically less than 50% driving.

You need to understand the different mixes and applications (S1-S5, Easyflow, etc) and how to slump the mixes (consistency) to account for cold or hot temperatures - you only get one shot as you can't unwet the mix once slumped. And also need a good understanding of things like ad mixtures (e.g. retarder) steel/plastic fibres and the many different methods of delivery from concrete pumps, to interacting with tower cranes/slingers, and flooring/foundation pours where there are a lot of hand signals you need to be able to understand and react to within seconds in order to not discharge too much and manoeuvre with precision, often in poor lighting.

And then you need to know a plethora of other general site stuff like being able to quickly read the colour coding of traffic cones whilst driving (e.g. a blue/white one indicating overhead cabling, green/white indicating works access etc) and know the exclusion zones for different hazards etc. Mixers are top heavy and really easy to topple over, especially due to often working on uneven ground, which is why most fatalities happen with mixers and tippers. You need to be very proficient at driving off road and using the diff lock as if you get stuck the mix will often solidify in the drum before you can be recovered. None of it is that hard to understand but it's a lot to put together, especially when you're often working under pressure in extremely dangerous environments where it literally takes a second to mess up catastrophically.

It certainly didn't take as long to do all the training as it did to get my degree, but you're looking at a few years to become really competent and put it all together. It's a far cry from being a cleaner or binman tbf or a standard delivery driver dropping off pallets, without any disrespect to any of the above. You defo need to be pretty on the ball.

I was trying to get into Tarmac's in house concrete division for a good while and only succeeded after having contracted for Cemex, Aggregate Industries, Hanson/Heidelberg, Accumix, and Tarmac's mortar division - seven years trucking experience with three years specifically on the drum mixers.