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What do you think are the things that hold women back at work?what could be done to improve things ?

133 replies

JennyTals · 10/01/2025 00:48

This is actually a homework question, but I thought we could come with some good ideas, personally I think it's all fairly equal up until the point of getting pregnant and having children
Well that was my experience

Things I think hold fairness/equality back are

The huge expectations on women to not only work, but to do the lions share of the work at home with cleaning cooking shopping childcare And School stuff

Lack of childcare in workplaces like nursery's

Cost of childcare

Employers don't really like it when women take time off for mat leave and sick children etc thye might not say anything but they often don't like it
Men tend to take less sick days for poorly kids

If the children have issues the mothers tend to get blamed more

OP posts:
JimHalpertsWife · 10/01/2025 09:21

The lyrics to Taylor Swifts "The Man" are very good, in relation to this.

I would be complex
I would be cool
They'd say I played the field before I found someone to commit to
And that would be okay
For me to do
Every conquest I had made would make me more of a boss to you
I'd be a fearless leader
I'd be an alpha type
When everyone believes ya
What's that like?
I'm so sick of running as fast as I can
Wondering if I'd get there quicker if I was a man
And I'm so sick of them coming at me again
'Cause if I was a man
Then I'd be the man
I'd be the man
I'd be the man
They'd say I hustled
Put in the work
They wouldn't shake their heads and question how much of this I deserve
What I was wearing
If I was rude
Could all be separated from my good ideas and power moves?
And they would toast to me, oh
Let the players play
I'd be just like Leo
In Saint-Tropez
I'm so sick of running as fast as I can
Wondering if I'd get there quicker if I was a man
And I'm so sick of them coming at me again
'Cause if I was a man
Then I'd be the man
I'd be the man
I'd be the man
What's it like to brag about
Raking in dollars
And getting bitches and models
And it's all good if you're bad
And it's okay if you're mad
If I was out flashing my dollars
I'd be a bitch, not a baller
They paint me out to be bad
So it's okay that I'm mad

CheshireCat1 · 10/01/2025 09:26

Personal I prefer having male colleagues and managers, in my experience they don’t seem to have cliques. I’ve never had a work issue because I’m a woman but I have had issues as I’ve aged, mainly from younger women.

Watwing · 10/01/2025 09:48

I can't speak for other industries or workplaces, only my own experience and the only thing ever 'holding' me back is me. But I don't see it that way. I'm simply prioritising my family at the moment and don't want the career progression.

NormasArse · 10/01/2025 09:50

Pinkyponkz · 10/01/2025 04:54

Periods / menopause/ mostly male upper management who don’t understand any of it.

This.

The menopause did me in.

notprincehamlet · 10/01/2025 09:50

Care/admin/end of life support for elderly parents falling disproportionately on women with no employment protection. Trying to navigate that with your employer and shouldering that emotional and cost burden can very easily leave you broke and broken at a time in life when you don't have the years or the opportunities (society really doesn't like older women) to work your way back and make up the financial deficit. And Davina McCall and the menopause industry with their bloody meno brain bullshit really don't help.

popandchoc · 10/01/2025 09:57

Childcare falling on women, either single parents doing majority or in couple but being the default parent.
Lack of confidence, i have always found i lack this compared to male counterparts. Could be a personality thing but does seem to be more females. If you want to do well you need to be loud and bolshy which isn't me.

Happyinarcon · 10/01/2025 10:08

I already made a comment, but as an additional point, I would like it if things that were considered to be traditionally women’s work, like mothering, running households and caregiving in general, were given the status they deserve. Women have traditionally been the ones who reach out to people and other families and maintain the community links and connections. Women used to be ones who knocked on the door of the old lady at the end of the road and kept tabs on vulnerable people in the neighbourhood etc.

Now no one has the time, because everyone is overworked, and the media has convinced us that this role is completely without value and we should do our best to avoid it. It’s like we have been taught to despise or be ashamed of any task traditionally associated with women when instead we should have raised the profile of these tasks and taken pride in them.

Im just ranting I guess, but our communities would be so much healthier if all the behind the scenes work often done by women was considered equal to paid work. We are constantly being told it takes a village to raise a child, but then finding no one has the time to be part of that village.

OneAmberFinch · 10/01/2025 10:09

I think you're right OP for identifying that the issue is post-children. Pregnancy and early childrearing is the point where the biological differences between the sexes are the most salient. And yet the feminist answer for a while to this problem has been "let's focus our efforts on making sure men and women are treated exactly equally at this exact period".

I think there should be more explicit support for returning to work after longer maternity leaves than a year. I have a "big job" and would completely leave the career track if I quit, there is no path back. There is no "small job" version of my job that I could do for a few years. I think I'd legally not be allowed to, say, take 5 years off and then ask to return on a ramped up salary basis starting from quite low but then returning back to my current trajectory after a couple years to get back into the swing. And it would probably get a lot of backlash from people saying they were discriminating against mothers. But currently the career path completely disappears... So I don't see how that's better.

OhBling · 10/01/2025 10:18

popandchoc · 10/01/2025 09:57

Childcare falling on women, either single parents doing majority or in couple but being the default parent.
Lack of confidence, i have always found i lack this compared to male counterparts. Could be a personality thing but does seem to be more females. If you want to do well you need to be loud and bolshy which isn't me.

There is a bigger issue here which is that workplaces too often prioritise traditionally male characteristics. There are studies that are pointing out that this is, in fact, detrimental. So feminism when I started working was all about encouraging women to be more "assertive" and to stand up for themselves etc. But now diversity in the workplace is trying to rather prioritise identifying women who are NOT doing those things but are nonetheless high performers.

OhBling · 10/01/2025 10:22

@Happyinarcon one of the law firms I worked with a few years ago was trying to grapple with this issue (they weren't making progress but they were at least trying). They acknowledged that there was a societal imbalance and that their female lawyers in particlar were more likely to be impacted by this - caring responsibilities (outside of childcare which everyone knew about) etc. They felt they couldn't change this but they were trying to create programmes that would facilitate this sort of out-of-the-office responsibilities for men OR women and had kickstarted a programme to massively increase paternity leave benefits, in part to start shifting their culture by encouraging the men in their office to step up and to attract men who were more likely to want to take on these responsibilities. How effective it would have been I can't say, but I admired them for at least making SOME effort.

TheNinkyNonkyIsATardis · 10/01/2025 10:39

OhBling · 10/01/2025 10:18

There is a bigger issue here which is that workplaces too often prioritise traditionally male characteristics. There are studies that are pointing out that this is, in fact, detrimental. So feminism when I started working was all about encouraging women to be more "assertive" and to stand up for themselves etc. But now diversity in the workplace is trying to rather prioritise identifying women who are NOT doing those things but are nonetheless high performers.

Yes, there was a great example of this at my previous work.

One man who would collar you and talk at extreme length about his opinions on how the work would go. He'd done mock ups. He'd show you websites. He'd bang on for two hours solid about his vision. He was passionate, according to his manager.

One woman would sit quietly during meetings, vote when asked to, and make one or two incisive comments. Same manager explicitly said that he didn't want her on his team.

Manager leaves - new CEO. New (male) CEO has no time for listening to endless unproductive blather of first man. Likes the quiet incisiveness of the woman. Man leaves when no one will give him time to spell out his vision any more. Woman gets promoted for quietly getting shit done.

We need to value people who get shit done more than people who talk about getting shit done.

bandicoot99 · 10/01/2025 10:51

Affordable childcare first and foremost, followed by equal paternity leave if mothers want to return to work sooner, but other than that, it often comes down to choice. We cannot have it all, at least not all at the same time, so if you want to progress your career something else needs to be sacrificed and you need to parent with an equal partner who will do their share of pick ups, sick days, household work etc and be comfortable with spending less time with the kids. Saying the load 'falls on women' and employers should therefore accommodate that is a bit of a cope out imo. Women need to demand more from their partners at an individual level and think twice before having kids if their husband is not going to step up, or otherwise accept there will be short and long term impact on their careers compared with men who are not taking any time out for family responsibilities. I do see this change happening where I work in terms of fathers taking more responsibility and the male members of my team will often say they need to WFH to deal with a sick child, leave early so they can go to a school play, or so their wife can attend a work function etc which is great.

OhBling · 10/01/2025 11:02

I'm a bit surprised by how many people think it is purely down to childcare. I can't work out if this is a good thing or a bad thing. I can see it as a good thing if women are finding that prior to having children they're not seeing any difference in career progression, pay, opportunities etc and it only starts after they have children.

But in my experience, this simply isn't true. The differences start long before women start having children and while yes, there might be some subconscious bias against women because they might in future have children, I'm just not convinced that's the entirety of it and i think if we try to convince ourselves it's ONLY the biological reality of pregnancy and childbirth and the subsequent issues with childcare, we're going to ignore a lot of the intrinsic inequalities that are there from day 1.

Sparkymoo · 10/01/2025 11:18

Expectation to work past your contracted hours. This should be unnecessary or occasional otherwise the job is not resources properly.

Would benefit everyone in terms of work life balance as well.

I now work for a scandi company that actively encourages not to work beyond your hours.

Sparkymoo · 10/01/2025 11:18

Plus people employ themselves. So men continue to recruit men and genuinely believe it's always because they are the best candidate on the day.

BashfulClam · 10/01/2025 11:22

The taboo around periods. Yes they are painful for some and debilitating but we can’t actually mention it.

runningpram · 10/01/2025 11:23

The poisoned chalice being the only way of achieving promotion is another factor.
Woman takes a big job and is thrown into the deep end in difficult circumstances, left to sink or swim and told she is failure if it goes wrong.
Man takes job and is given lots of support and credit when it goes well and more forbearance if it goes a bit wrong.
It’s true in every bit of professional life - even PMs and presidents. Theresa May and Kamala Harris spring to mind.

OhBling · 10/01/2025 11:29

runningpram · 10/01/2025 11:23

The poisoned chalice being the only way of achieving promotion is another factor.
Woman takes a big job and is thrown into the deep end in difficult circumstances, left to sink or swim and told she is failure if it goes wrong.
Man takes job and is given lots of support and credit when it goes well and more forbearance if it goes a bit wrong.
It’s true in every bit of professional life - even PMs and presidents. Theresa May and Kamala Harris spring to mind.

Edited

100% agree.

OneAmberFinch · 10/01/2025 11:37

OhBling · 10/01/2025 11:02

I'm a bit surprised by how many people think it is purely down to childcare. I can't work out if this is a good thing or a bad thing. I can see it as a good thing if women are finding that prior to having children they're not seeing any difference in career progression, pay, opportunities etc and it only starts after they have children.

But in my experience, this simply isn't true. The differences start long before women start having children and while yes, there might be some subconscious bias against women because they might in future have children, I'm just not convinced that's the entirety of it and i think if we try to convince ourselves it's ONLY the biological reality of pregnancy and childbirth and the subsequent issues with childcare, we're going to ignore a lot of the intrinsic inequalities that are there from day 1.

In my experience there is nothing really stopping a determined woman from progressing at the same rate as a man before children.

You can argue that for various societal reasons women sometimes doubt themselves or don't believe they have what it takes or they don't aggressively pursue promotions etc.

But if you're an individual woman and you're quite stubborn you can just push past that. This describes basically all the professional women I know.

After children, especially if you have several or if any of them have health or SEN issues... It doesn't matter how "determined" you are. I think that's what people are saying.

I'm most familiar with the very structured career paths you get in e.g. investment banking: you WILL get a promotion if you're still there after 2 years. You WILL complete every project you are allocated to a high standard. I think this works in women's favour in the early stages relative to corporate jobs (there is no "putting yourself forward for a promotion", and salaries are high and standardised). It works swiftly against anyone who needs to leave that very structured path, even temporarily.

JimHalpertsWife · 10/01/2025 11:43

There's a social aspect to this too, not just what happens in the workplace.

New mums are asked about when/if/how much they will return to work. New dads are not.

Mums are asked who is babysitting when they go out without the kids. Dad's are not.

Mums are critiqued / judged openly or covertly for being SAHM, PT, FT. Dad's are not.

All of these little quirks in our culture actually add up to an overwhelming feeling of emotions (esp guilt) added on to working mothers mental plate. Which men do not have happen to them.

So even if you feel like you can and want to work damn hard at your career you are already being measured on the above, by the majority of people around you, consciously or unconsciously.

123ZYX · 10/01/2025 11:44

@OneAmberFinch I'm not sure that's true. I've had interviews pre-children where the interviewer has been very obvious about working out my "family situation" as they put it. I'm sure there are others who have been less obvious about it. You don't need to have had children for the possibility of children to be held against you

SharpOpalNewt · 10/01/2025 11:47

Another thing which actually holds women back in effect is the expectation from employers that fathers will carry on as before and carry on working full time. When quite a number of dads do actually want to work fewer hours and have a good deal of involvement with their children. And it can actually be harder for them to do that.

HermioneWeasley · 10/01/2025 11:49

I am an ethnic minority lesbian with 2 kids who has had a very successful career in 2 different male dominated industries. I don’t think it has held me back at all. What is my secret? I have a wife.

also, despite being a foreigner from a Muslim background, I am very assimilated so am non threatening from that perspective.

I honestly believe if you can operate exactly the way that white men do, there isn’t any discrimination.

obviously that’s not an option for most women and lots of ethnic minorities.

OhBling · 10/01/2025 11:57

OneAmberFinch · 10/01/2025 11:37

In my experience there is nothing really stopping a determined woman from progressing at the same rate as a man before children.

You can argue that for various societal reasons women sometimes doubt themselves or don't believe they have what it takes or they don't aggressively pursue promotions etc.

But if you're an individual woman and you're quite stubborn you can just push past that. This describes basically all the professional women I know.

After children, especially if you have several or if any of them have health or SEN issues... It doesn't matter how "determined" you are. I think that's what people are saying.

I'm most familiar with the very structured career paths you get in e.g. investment banking: you WILL get a promotion if you're still there after 2 years. You WILL complete every project you are allocated to a high standard. I think this works in women's favour in the early stages relative to corporate jobs (there is no "putting yourself forward for a promotion", and salaries are high and standardised). It works swiftly against anyone who needs to leave that very structured path, even temporarily.

Your very first sentence sums up the problem: In my experience there is nothing really stopping a determined woman from progressing at the same rate as a man before children..

The problem is the very large number of not-terribly-determined men who will also progress at this rate. Why do women have to be "determined" and men just have to turn up?

The structured career paths in investment banking, law, accountancy etc theoretically should, as you say, not impact women. But they still do. eg, "complete every project to a high standard" - I completely agree. BUT, there are differences. Eg... which projects? The men are more likely to be allocated to the high profile, highly profitable projects and desks.

I did some work for a law firm a few years ago that had done some work on their gender pay gap report. when they looked at the data, pay for men and women was largely equal. But when they looked at bonuses, they saw there was a difference. This seemed odd but at first, they thought, "well, bonuses are about performance - billable hours in particular, as well as performance reviews and the reality is that there are more women working part time, or who have caring responsibilities so that must be it." But then they looked at the data a bit more closely and they realised this discrepancy in bonus was happening pretty much from day 1 and that, even adjusted for part time work etc, was happening throughout the firm, not just at the point at which women's caring responsibilities were ramping up.

So they took another look. And lo and behold, at most levels, there were disparities in billable hours. They thought, "so what, evern 24 year hold women are choosing to work fewer hours when they don't have children, what's happening here?" So they went to talk to the women. (bearing in mind the discrepancy wasn't necessarily huge but still there). And it turned out that many of these women were more than willing to put in the extra hours, but they weren't being allocated the work on the really big, chunky, juicy projects that required almost infinite amount of billable hours. (I have a memory of also being told that many were taking on more non-billable projects but I feel like that COULD have been another client, not this one). [++ side point: I also have a sneaky suspicion the women were just more efficient! Grin ]

Then they took a look at the subjective part of the performance reviews - ie feedback from partners and managers. And again, interestingly, they saw that while the overall curve was similar, the women's curve was shifted to the left... ie similar percentage of top performer vs low performer relative to the female cohort BUT, that the top performers were, on average, slightly less high performing than the male top performers and the low performers were slightly more low performing. How could this be? It made no sense - surely the breakdown should be similar between men and women? Again, they tried to dig into this. And found that partly this was the same issue as the billable thing - ie that the higher profile, chunkier work tended to get higher performance ratings from senior partners so of course, that was the men. Plus some more nebulous factors around the fact that women would just consistently get marked a bit lower (not allowing for the super super high performing women but of course, those are the ones working 3x as hard, figthing 5x as hard but still only on a par with the top men).

So in order to fix their gender pay gap, even at the relatively junior level, they had to improve the performance metrics and remove bias. And then they came up against another challenge - when they told the senior partners within various practices that the work allocation process was a problem, they got pushback. So within a year, those practice groups that had accepted they needed a more data-driven work allocation process (done by a centralised team based on the data available about the individual lawyers' skills, experience, workloads), they quickly saw billable hours equalise and bonuses start to increase. But for the practice groups that refused, the bonus gender pay gap remained. In part, they solved for this by simply shifting the entire female cohort up the curve, but it was an ongoing challenge.

In many ways, I'd argue banks, law firms, consultancies are often the worst, still. Yes, women can succeed. But they still seem to have to work harder and play by traditionally male rules more often.

[INcidentally, a few years before this, another law firm client I worked with did some analysis on the language used in performance reviews for women vs men... blow me down with a feather, all those characteristics that are so often portrayed differently for me and women were there. Assertive men, aggressive women. Ambitious men are goal-driven, ambitios women are "competitive". Men are passionate, women are emotional etc etc. They also found that male performance reviews focused on work but women's often focused on softer skills, subtly undermining the women's performance at revenue-generating tasks.]

OhBling · 10/01/2025 11:58

HermioneWeasley · 10/01/2025 11:49

I am an ethnic minority lesbian with 2 kids who has had a very successful career in 2 different male dominated industries. I don’t think it has held me back at all. What is my secret? I have a wife.

also, despite being a foreigner from a Muslim background, I am very assimilated so am non threatening from that perspective.

I honestly believe if you can operate exactly the way that white men do, there isn’t any discrimination.

obviously that’s not an option for most women and lots of ethnic minorities.

but why should women have to oeprate the way white men do?