What do you think are the things that hold women back at work?what could be done to improve things ?

[JennyTals]

This is actually a homework question, but I thought we could come with some good ideas, personally I think it's all fairly equal up until the point of getting pregnant and having children
Well that was my experience

Things I think hold fairness/equality back are

The huge expectations on women to not only work, but to do the lions share of the work at home with cleaning cooking shopping childcare And School stuff

Lack of childcare in workplaces like nursery's

Cost of childcare

Employers don't really like it when women take time off for mat leave and sick children etc thye might not say anything but they often don't like it
Men tend to take less sick days for poorly kids

If the children have issues the mothers tend to get blamed more

I'm not sure that my comment is an example of 'society' holding women back but when I met my DH at uni, one of the things that attracted him to me was my ambition and that i was careers focused. I made it clear that it was unlikely this attribute would dim.

We got married, have 2 kids and I have continued to progress in my career but I feel that my DH thinks I should have been happy to coast along, instead. He doesn't like that I work extra hours, even though I explained that I would have to do so sometimes due my role / grade and the expectations that come with that, and he didn't say that it would be an issue. Yet I'm still the one who goes to the DC's music recitals, school assemblies etc, as my working hours are also more flexible, and am the person managing the 'mental load' work of sorting out breakfast / after school / holiday club, booking parents evening or tickets for school events etc.

My DH works extra hours (not as much as I do) in order to build lieu time. I'm fine with that and if he needed to work extra hours then I wouldn't have an issue with that. Yet, it seems wrong that I work extra hours for my role.

Just wondered if anyone has encountered a similar experience?

I'm in two minds as to whether I want to continue with any further career progression, given how DH has been with my progression to date.

Was going to say this. Many women seem to stop caring about smashing the patriarchy and instead focus on their family.

And men tend to not sweat the small stuff as much and are less risk averse (maybe due to testosterone). Obviously I'm generalising.

I agree. And this is one of the areas where this kind of discussion gets complicated. I'm not sure if I am correct saying this but I think the framework for equal parenting exists, in that men can take an equal role - they can choose to take time off to care for a sick child but often don't. You are right some women do put their husband's career first believing that to be correct and choosing to marry someone who expects their career to be more important. That is their choice and many come to regret it. There there are couples who agree to parent equally before having children only for the woman to see those agreements go out of the window once the child arrives and there is little a woman can do about it at that stage. Then there are the men who feign such incompetence with child care that the mother has to carry the load for the child's well being. Women can expect all manner of things from their partners and end up sorely disappointed.

I've come to think of women's struggle for equality to be much like juggling with wet bars of soap.

@jennymac31 yes I experienced similar.

I'm divorced now but when I was with my ex he would be outraged if I got a call out of hours, would pace around muttering "they're taking the piss", yet the nature of my job meant that flexibility was required from me.

He on the other hand would work hours of overtime, "nip into the office" and considered that perfectly acceptable.

I earned a lot more than him but he would say that his job was more important than mine. At a societal level he was correct but in terms of keeping our family housed and fed he wasn't, and I strongly suspect if the position had been reversed he would have still claimed priority because of his earnings.

My theory regarding me working extra hours is that he saw my time as something for his own benefit and my work was therefore taking something from him. I suspect something similar is going on with your husband.

His time, however, is his own of course.

DP tries his best at home, but really, isn't great. He is, however, great at work, and gets the "man bonus" at work. So from my view, his is best placed at work, and the more money he can bring in, the better. It makes sense for him to work full-time.

I am an all-rounder. But it's unfair for me to do absolutely everything ie bring in money (despite discrimination at work) and domestic work. And so I work part-time. This makes it fair. It only works on trust though, that all money that comes in is shared for the family.

I like the Japanese model, where the man's salary goes straight to the woman's account so she controls the budget for the family.

I worked in a male dominated industry and, at the risk of getting flamed I’m afraid my opinion is the main thing holding women back is women themselves and the fact they don’t behave like men.

• men, at least in my industry, did not ask for accommodations for child care
• i never had a man turn down an opportunity that was good for his career due to potential impact on family life. Happened with plenty of women though
• men are willing to put the extra effort in (hours, difficult tasks) for personal reward
• men have a strong eye on personal reward. Generalising, they are not people pleasers unless there is something in it for them and not afraid to speak up and demand what they believe to be their worth including pay rises / promotions
• they are more likely to take on a challenge they are not confident they can do and ‘figure it out’ if it will result in personal success
• they are more likely to put up with difficult people/ conditions if the money and promotion prospects are right

these are my personal observations with 25 years of managing ambitious, well paid people Of course, most men I knew, particularly those with a family, had a wife at home picking up the slack. As long as women do this, the problem continues. Even before children the points about demanding money / promotion and putting up with difficult circumstances to further their career were true.

I also think there is something around the fact that women have their lives turned upside down when a child comes along whereas a man usually continues, after a little while, with his normal job. Therefore when the maternity leave comes to an end, the status quo is that the man has his normal job and the woman is already doing 24x7 childcare so it becomes ‘her’ problem to find care to return to work. This can be compounded by a man already earning more due to the points above and also he is likely to be a little older and therefore a little longer in the workplace.

If women don’t want it to happen to them:

1. prioritise salary over almost anything else so that you are in the financial position to carry a large portion, if not all, family costs
2. go back to work full time relatively quickly after children to minimise career impact (see 1) - let husband take some extended leave!
3. be prepared to not be the main care giver for your child long term - at a minimum share 50/50 with partner or he takes on even more. I realise many women would not be happy with this but this is the reality for many men and the flip side of not being ‘held back’

Unfortunately, women trying to be like men in the workplace only results in very burnt out women, and children with no parents to care for them.

I think society needs to pay women for their - very important, but undervalued - unpaid work.

agree that is what should happen, but it won't as long as there are women willing to put up with the career impacts and the unpaid work. i.e for the last 1000 years or so. Make it a 50% man problem and it will be gone in a generation...
I'm not saying try to do everything and get burned out, I'm saying precisely the opposite. Make it an everyone problem

@Firefly100 I don't have 25 years of experience but that matches my experience in male-dominated industries too.

I think in many cases having a child accelerates the divergence from the men's side as well - I know several men in my family who were happily going along at the standard rate in their careers, found out they were having a baby, then decided to go balls to the wall on salary negotiations, aggressively taking on projects etc, because they suddenly felt the weight of being the breadwinner and having a little baby relying on them.

It's a bit unfashionable to refer to men as having a provider instinct but I think this behaviour often gets framed as "he started working late at work to get out of changing nappies, lazy bastard", and while I'm sure that's the case for some men, we do them a disservice to just not acknowledge it at all.

One of my male Swedish colleagues took his parental leave, as allowed (and expected) under Swedish employment law - and our German manager did mutter about not being dedicated to his job. (This was merely one of the many, many ways he proved himself to be a bullying arsehole.)

The fact that a lot of them can't hear us when we speak is a bit of a struggle. So I have heard (and been on the receiving end of) a woman giving input into a meeting and being ignored then a man says the same and is heard. My manager did it a couple of times and for a while after (and I pulled him up on it) my male colleague after I said something would say shall I repeat that so that (boss name) can hear it.

This is my experience too.

I notice it in very subtle ways eg men being praised on their intelligence and skill and women being praised on their personalities.

Also the fact that when something comes up requiring soft skills like presenting or organising something, the women are often "selected" leaving the men to do the complicated technical work.

There is so much talk about diversity and inclusion. There are tons of ways I could report being discriminated against if the men were rubbing their hands together shouting "I only promote men because I believe women are inferior" around the office.

It's a lot harder with subtle things. I cannot report that when we are in a group, the boss maintains eye contact with the men more and turns his body towards them and is more engaged with what they're saying. There's no way to prove it and I'd sound mad and paranoid.

It's all small things that add up though and in the end women just aren't taken as seriously nor trusted that they are adequate at their jobs as readily.

Then there's the stuff that's less subtle and I guess could be reported but it's not serious enough that it's worth the nuclear option because there would obviously be consequences for you too.

Someone might get spoken to or sent on some training but then you're in an office where everyone knows you've done that. Anonymous reporting is no good if you are the only person who could have made the report. They won't be stupid enough to openly retaliate but they'll be less warm, pick you up on mistakes more and make less effort with you.

So unless it's some sort of massive scandal or really awful and unarguably discriminatory thing happening then all the women I know at work feel there's no choice but to just accept that people don't see us as the same.

Going into a male dominated industry has made me suspect that attitudes have not changed as much as we would have liked. Instead whats changed is what we say publicly.

Biology for me at 47.

Some days I have to drag myself out of bed and force myself to function. Other days I could rule the world. The next day I want to sit under my desk and cry (always been reserved). Mostly I now look at my career and don't give a fuck. I know it's peri and I hope I don't mess it all up and I come out the other end without taking drastic action. My male colleagues my age are flourishing.

Women without children are statistically not held back.

It's all to do with maternity, childcare and women still being expected to be the default parent.

Any successful women I've worked for have either been childless or have had the ability to be very detached from their children (e.g working late when there's been no obligation to and missing their kids bedtime as a result).

I hate the idea that women just need to be more like men to be successful but until the standard FT work day fits with school hours and flexible working becomes normal everywhere it just won't happen

Nothing you say here is intrinsically inaccurate but it's all terribly 2 dimensional.

men, at least in my industry, did not ask for accommodations for child care
Yes, great. except SOMEONE has to lok after the children. So businesses and men have been quite happily taking advantage of the fact that women have to do this. (you later say women should go back to work, do 50/50 parenting - again, so true and I agree. But in the REAL world, it's not as easy as just saying this is what it should be like. It almost never is.)

i never had a man turn down an opportunity that was good for his career due to potential impact on family life. Happened with plenty of women though.
This is partly because men aren't the primary caregivers - see above. Also, is this a thing we want to keep perpetuating? that men and careers shouldn't have to consider the reality of family?

men are willing to put the extra effort in (hours, difficult tasks) for personal reward
This one is laughable. It's true. But it's NOT true that women aren't willing, particularly pre children. But as I and others have pointed out earlier in this thread, women are not rewarded for this behaviour in the same way, they're often not allocated the more difficult/high profile tasks etc.

men have a strong eye on personal reward. Generalising, they are not people pleasers unless there is something in it for them and not afraid to speak up and demand what they believe to be their worth including pay rises / promotions
Also true. But how do you prpose we stop women from being incalcuated from birth practically to behave these ways? You seem to be blaming women and not actually thinking about the reliaty of the very different messages boys and girls receive pretty much from day 1.

they are more likely to take on a challenge they are not confident they can do and ‘figure it out’ if it will result in personal success
Sort of true. But 1. as above - why on earth do you not think it relevant to find ways to encourage women to do the same when appropriate? 2 Every woen in the workplace can point to a man taking on something he' snot capable of that he's cocked up or needed someone else to fix and that somehow, he's STILL landed up with the credit for.
Also, in my experience, a women who steps up to ask for a job liek this will get told no because she doesn't have the exact qualifications on paper.

they are more likely to put up with difficult people/ conditions if the money and promotion prospects are right
This one is completely untrue in my experience. Because as a rule, it's a lot easier for men to move around, often upwards. And also because they are far less likely ot experience difficult people/conditions because they're men and get treated better from the start.

Then there's this:
If women don’t want it to happen to them:

1. prioritise salary over almost anything else so that you are in the financial position to carry a large portion, if not all, family costs

Hahaha. Women consistently find it harder to get promotions, into high salaried jobs etc. Plus, when they are the higher earners, it does not change (as a rule) that they are still th eones dealing with the shit at home.

1. go back to work full time relatively quickly after children to minimise career impact (see 1) - let husband take some extended leave!

Sure - totally true although in some cases this just isn't practical for some women. As for "let husband take some extended leave" - how do you plan to enforce that? Because believe me, I have spoken to many women in real life who would happily have had their DH take on more but he isn't keen.

1. be prepared to not be the main care giver for your child long term - at a minimum share 50/50 with partner or he takes on even more. I realise many women would not be happy with this but this is the reality for many men and the flip side of not being ‘held back’

Hahahahaha. Yeah, like SOOOO many men are BEGGING to actually take on 50^ of the load?

Your thinking is quite old school. It assumes that women have to change to be more like men and that when they DO that, they will see the sam ebenefits. But the reality is that a) we shouldn't have to, b) until lots of other intrinsic things change it's mostly not practical and c) even when we DO we get penalised for it.

OhBling, these are all fair points and I do get that the world is not ideal I promise. Your comment 'how do we stop women being inculcated from birth practically to behave these ways' was kind of the point I was trying to make - admittedly without nuance but it was a very long post even just covering the bullet points I wanted to raise. We need to change the way we think about this problem. As long as it is a 'women's issue' it will never be resolved. There is no incentive (for men in charge). It is not so much that we have to change to be more like men that I am trying to say, more that *if this were a man problem too, a way to fix it would be found (more flexible working, accommodations etc etc...) because as you say, childcare is absolutely required. So if we stop being prepared to take the hit for children / life accommodations and demand equal sharing out from our partners, at a minimum, suddenly workplaces would find accommodations I am convinced. And my other key point is one (as a woman) can't demand that equal sharing if you can't make the same sacrifices to shoulder the resulting financial burden too. IME this is always the knock down argument in childcare / career prioritization discussions otherwise - he is the main earner therefore he must be prioritized.

@Firefly100 The problem for me is that you say that we shouldn't make it a "women's" issue as otherwise it won't be resolved and that there's no incentive for men to change. Which I agree with. But then you promptly go back on this by saying,

So if we stop being prepared to take the hit for children / life accommodations and demand equal sharing out from our partners, at a minimum, - so basically, again, WOMEN must do the work to fix things
suddenly workplaces would find accommodations I am convinced. - no, women would just get sidelined.

If your statement was "When MEN step up and demand equal sharing and not to be penalised for childcare, then workplaces would find accomodations" I think that would probably be more accurate.

Then you say:
And my other key point is one (as a woman) can't demand that equal sharing if you can't make the same sacrifices to shoulder the resulting financial burden too. But again, I think the problem is that men don't really see prioritising work and earnings as a "sacrifice". If men really wanted to share this burden, they'd be fighting harder for equal pay for women, they'd be demanding those accomodations we have just been talking about etc. But they're not. And that is the problem.

IME this is always the knock down argument in childcare / career prioritization discussions otherwise - he is the main earner therefore he must be prioritized.

Just to add with my other comments above - again, I think this is really quite untrue. It's an EXCUSE that men often use. I know lots and lots of families where the man is the lower earner and yet he STILL doesn't step up to do his share. It's funny how if a man has a lower paid job, somehow it's still more important/more difficult to be flexible etc because "people rely on him" or "I can't let the team down" or whatever. And somehow we always fall into this trap.

A woman works in an office job - "oh, your job is more flexible, so you can pick up the slack".
A man works in an office job - "My boss won't let me be flexible / need to be there for the team / working flexibily will limit my career progression"

A woman works as a nurse, "you rjob is important but it's a job, not a career and I earn more"
A man works as a nurse, "I can't just let my patients down"

A woman is a doctor, "oh, well you can pick your hours or speciality" (or, more frequently which we know does happen in medicine a lot, female doctors find themselves going down the GP routes or specialisms that allow them to be extra "family friendly" because they simply don't have the support at home vs the high profile, high paying surgical and other specialities that the men dominate in....)
A man is a doctor: "I can't let my patients down"

Women works in Tesco: "You are a low paid shift worker, so my job is the priorty".
Man works in Tesco: "If I miss a shift I will get fired"

I think I was not clear in what I said - by women refusing to take it all on and demanding men (our partners) take their fair share, it is then that men indeed would need those flexible accommodations too, request them and therefore workplaces would find it more of a priority to need to do so. So basically your statement 'when MEN step up...' I agree with. We need to get to that point. They won't if we keep solving the problem for them.

Re your other paragraph, again an attitude adjustment (I know I know in reality much harder). For me personally, I don't care what he sees as his priorities, there is 50%+ of childcare required and he is on the hook for it as their parent - I can fund his time and it's his problem to solve. Maybe he could look at going part time...

Women without children are statistically not held back.

I think it depends on your sector - I'm in a very male-dominated area of tech, and childless. I have definitely been held back at times, and less competent, less qualified male colleagues have had promotions and so on. I've had to have chats with HR for the same behaviour as male colleagues where it's just accepted, and when I've pointed this out, "oh well, that's just the way he is, you have to learn to live with it." But if it's just the way I am, I'm the one who has to change, we can't expect anyone to accept me as I am? And they don't see it. They think that by employing me, and not groping me in the datacentre, they're doing their bit for equality. Sexism etc is everyone else, not them.

There are plenty of men who think women in tech just naturally aren't as good, regardless of evidence. And some of them are hiring managers. Many of them will have had unconscious bias training, but they don't see it and won't change.

Women without children are statistically not held back.

The Economist did a study which found that childless female execs were 'promoted more aggressively than their male peers'.

But I agree it's probs sector dependent. However, I do notice a chicken/egg sort of dynamic. Maybe even a self fulfilling prophecy in some sectors where women will complain about the lack of diversity whilst simultaneously not wanting to work in that sector. I get £300 a night as a truck driver working on HS2 but none of my friends like the idea of getting muddy and working outside in the rain etc.

Although of course one might assume that if a woman chooses to forego children to focus on her career it's probs going to be a lucrative one. Men don't really have to make that choice as in many cases their wife will choose to step back to accommodate them focusing on their job.

It would be interesting to see the difference between the promotion opportunities for female execs and female non-execs.

I suspect there might be an element of heavily promoting those who get to exec level then patting themselves on the back for "doing good diversity" without considering diversity of promotion at lower levels. This would mean that o my those who really push themselves to get to exec level (work harder than men for the same promotion opportunities?) would benefit

@ShirkingFromHome95

"I get £300 a night as a truck driver working on HS2 but none of my friends like the idea of getting muddy and working outside in the rain etc."

Bloody hell that's good money and fair play to you not being bothered about the mud and rain.