Middle class but no money

[roopiea]

Does anyone else feel like this?

We would say we are middle class. Both university educated and privately schooled. In our 50s now. Parents had similar professions to us.

We work for the public sector, a teacher and management in local government. We live in a pretty reasonable part of the country. But we still feel we have no money for being in the middle class? We probably earn a combined 80k a year but live in a pretty bog standard 3 bed semi. Have holidays in places like Spain or Greece.

Whereas our neighbours are blue collar workers but seem to have so much more money than us. My best friend and her husband work similar jobs and they have a nicer house and better holidays than us.

This is really offensive to working-class people, not to mention completely inaccurate.

@spottedinthewilds
Think you're a bit confused

• Working class People from long term benefit claiming families and/or families who rely on council housing* WC literally means working; usually in trades, unskilled jobs not unemployed. Many so called professionals; teachers, nurses live in council housing. Personally I couldn't give a hoot where people live or what they work as, as long as you're a decent person that's what matters.

Totally agree. And in his case he only works for one super wealthy person. The kind of person who will probably get all kinds of honours and who people will be all obsequious towards because of their wealth and status. Yet he's happy to help my ex cheat the taxman and his own children

Ah OK, sorry for the misunderstanding.

Noone with a civil service pension thinks they can take the lot as cash

But they can take a sizeable chunk of it as cash when they retire, if they wish.

And actually I can't see the benefit of a pension pot you can raid at any point. It's there for when we are too old/ill to work.

The point is even if I stopped work now, in my mid forties, my pension would be enough to get buy in old age thanks to my years in the CS. Anything extra I put by from now is an added bonus. That's a pretty good position to be in

@chocolatespreadsandwich I agree nobody who is paying into/receiving a Civil Service Pension, and I'm in the recipient group, thinks there's a pot.

A lot of media coverage however leaves the opposite impression.

Johanna Noble in the Times today writes civil service employees, for example, get 28.97 per cent of their salary paid into a pension. It's a payroll tax towards my pension not money for them.

Availability of a lump sum now depends which scheme you are in. It was an integral part of the set up when I joined but changes c.20 years ago allowed other options.

There has always been a ribbon of insecurity running through MN, that one can remain steadfastly middle class because it is a way of life, a values based enclave and club that money can not touch. Incredibly it is rather brash to be too wealthy or comfortable after all.

The hollow truth is that money IS required for music lessons, riding lessons, ponies, budding young skiers and cultural experiences.

That the state school environment, especially at secondary school level, will most definitely erode away all of your parenting skills and values faster than you imagine.

That the refinement, poise and polish can and will be replaced by an onslaught of popular culture that will arrest all of your hard work with your teens especially.

Your friends may be genteel, but your children won’t have that luxury.

So the fallacy continues that you can be poor and middle class somehow because it’s about heritage, values and genetics.

The truth is in today’s world the Beckhams of the world are snapping up the new network of tomorrow, the tech kids are calling the shots, the influencers are on the ski slopes - and the dusty academics and the traditional middle classes are being eaten alive by the cost of living, taxes, loss of inheritance and status and mostly are finding themselves unexpectedly on the scrap heap of life - because everyone and everything has suddenly moved on, and no one sees the value in our law degree from a prestigious university anymore, when AI are consuming our vocations even as I type this.

This age old MN MC discussion will see the final nails hammered into its coffin by this trusty Labour government. They are absolutely determined to level the playing field and annihilate ambition, prosperity and expertise of any kind.

Many of you that were virtual signalling as you voted them in last year, like the good citizens that you are will come to see this as the beginning of the end for the MC.

There is no fool like an old fool that has been left behind… tomorrow’s world will be led by the Musks and the tech kids driving the algorithms - as distasteful as it sounds. It’s a new dawn, and time to wake up to the new reality.

If you think you can escape this living nightmare and buy that old chateau in Provence after all, think again, Le Pen will be crowned soon enough and England will look like a beacon of tolerance and goodwill when it does. The party is officially over.

Teaching and local govement administrators have never had "private schol and big house" salary levels have they? If you read literature in times gone by there is always characters who are "poor" school masters and clerks. They aren't on the same level as the more upper middle class professions of medicine and law.

Also often upper middle class professionals are subbed by family wealth - there will be people from long standing legal, literary and medical families whose salaries are supplemented by trust funds and property bought with family help.

It really makes me think, as an educator. When I was at school a long time ago now, it was made very clear to us that education = money and yes, there was a clear correlation between education level and social class, even if class consciousness was far less present where I grew up.

It galls people to know they have been sold the same concept. I was going to call it a lie; I think it still aligns in some ways in that progression is capped, e.g. in the military, if you don't have a certain level of education. But we're also now living in a society where, increasingly, this is flipped. Young people these days see so many people without a traditional high-school education making so much money. Those in the trades, who can easily make more than many graduates, even without fiddling with taxes. My plumber made almost £90 out of me for 10mins work (plus 15mins travel). Even if half of that goes on insurance and taxes, he's still made more in half an hour than I make in a full hour.

The issue comes with us being told how much we must value education above all else. Students have ridiculous academic targets, which schools are being held accountable for, are pushed to go to college and then university, which means many will leave education with an enormous amount of debt - all under the promise that they will earn more money once they've put all that work and money in.

And then it turns out that if they'd left school at 16, got an apprenticeship where they could earn on the job and then gone straight to work they could not only earn more, but also not be in debt for the rest of their lives? Yes, it may be frontloaded, but let's face it, many pension schemes are pitiful at best and the so-called gold-plated ones we as teachers pay huge sums into may not even pay out by the time we're able to retire. And they see people on social media earning millions for not much effort at all.

We need to be realistic in what we're selling our young people today. It was fruitless me talking to my own child, who is now hellbent on going to university next year, because they we still told by everyone that they need to go the academic route to earn money. The subjects they have chosen are semi-academic at best. They're dreaming of 100k salaries when the reality is that the job they're looking at starts at 30k and usually caps at 50k after years of experience, and that 100k is the rare exception. Just like people going into teaching get told of 60k salaries, which are experienced HOD or SLT level only.

As such, the education system and the expectations of it need to get with the times. Why are we pushing so many kids into an adacemic life when they're not suited to it and know that they can earn more as an electrician than a research scientist? Why can we not teach more functional skills, more life skills, and reserve the academic subjects - mine included - for those who have aptitude and want to actually go down that path?

@Elendel hmm yes interesting. I think there is still some snobbery around university education as well, that being university educated in itself makes you a better person. I don't think it's as bad as it is in the US which seems to stigmatise non college goers more, but I suspect there is some pressure on some young people to go because it's the done thing and they'd be a disappointment if they don't.

I've made it very clear to mine I have no expectation of them going to uni and they should only do so if they have a solid plan and know how they will utilise their degree, but then, I grew up working class, so perhaps I don't value the education in the same way, it's not about status for me, but how you can make your living and if it makes financial sense.

They are daft if they aren't paying NI and pension contributions. The will have a very impoverished retirement if they don't. They may be able to do their own accounts etc especially if they are straightforward.

What education gives you is choices and flexibility, meaning you have more options if there is a down turn in your industry or you need to pivot.

I grew up in a town with a dominant employer where people could leave school at 16 and get very decently paid and secure work. I was mocked for going a different way and earni g a lot less than them in my 20s. Now sadly that employer has shut up shop and many of my old schoolmates see themselves on the scrap heap in their 40s.

Comparison is the thief of joy.

Yes, but those 2 often come hand in hand. People on low income need top up benefits.

Teaching and local govement administrators have never had "private schol and big house" salary levels have they?

In the late sixties my Father was a company director and we moved to what was regarded as a pretty 'posh' part of one of Leeds's outlying suburbs.

The head of the grammar school and a significant cohort of his staff lived on the same estate. They couldn't afford it now though; not even the head.

Touche; it takes two though

But I’m not the one who replied to another posters comment with a rant about something they didn’t even say… perhaps it’s a comprehension thing?

@chocolatespreadsandwich its like banging your head against a wall! 😆

And also, more scope to keep working when ill /disabled.

The charity I volunteers for supports a lot of people who earned well in physical jobs but disability or ill health put an end to it. Unless they had hefty savings put aside they really struggle.

Not saying that means those people should have chosen a desk job instead but just that if you can and you have a physical job like builder /hairdresser etc you should be putting a decent chunk away in savings.

Or, Brexit sent the cheap labour away back to EU and now the UK tradies can charge what they like for poor quality work and blame the hugely increased import fees for goods.

Teaching and local govement administrators have never had "private schol and big house" salary levels have they?

Especially if they've made no effort to progress. As with many careers teaching and local government have a career path, promotion isn't automatic, you can be entry level or you can progress to director level, considering they've had presumably 30+ years in their careers I can only assume very minimal effort has been made in those career paths to still only be earning £40k.

Seriously I am struck entirely by your naivety. Most cash in hand cleaners are from Eastern Europe. They can plough the proceeds into a property there, whilst also subletting whilst they are living here. They are cashing in on child benefits and other British benefits in the meantime. Including the top ups. Some people really have no idea what is happening do they 😬

My definition of working class = those who work for a living.

I tick some but not all of the middle class boxes: I am educated to masters level & have a job requiring a professional qualification. But my DC is disabled and is/will be on benefits. No family inheritance to anticipate....such as there was has been swallowed up by care home fees.

The lingering concept of middle class as distinct from/above wc is a distraction. Probably encouraged with the intention of dividing us, as we are not supposed to notice how most of us are steadily getting poorer.

I think it's hugely oversimplistic to say it's lack of effort, wish to progress.

In those careers you can often be a brilliant technical specialist and not really progress at all. Whereas "management " skills are overvalued and overpaid.

I realised that and switched to the management track but I would say a l slice of those in senior management with me were incompetent liars who just schmoozed the right people and trod on the heads of brilliant technical specialists. There were brilliant people too but let's not pretend career success directly correlates to hard work or ability as it is a total lie. The people who lied and pushed blame onto others etc often did the best

Same with schools. There are some brilliant hard working teachers at my childrens junior school. But the governors picked a head from outside who impressed at interview. My son did SATs the first year.she was there and she was going round rubbing out answers and correcting them

Again, it was lying and cheating that got her her promotion. Not hard work

@chocolatespreadsandwich I'm probably being a bit simplistic. But the way the OP comes across is as if she and her husband are entitled to more pay because they are middle class, as if ambition and hard work don't come into it at all. The careers they have are professional ones for sure, but that doesn't mean you automatically get the salaries that match the lifestyle you want.

You have to be strategic, plan, progress. Similarly to you I also re-evaluated and took a side step in my career to be able to progress faster/further for more money. But that took forethought and action. Just being in a traditionally middle class role with my degrees wasn't going to get me my detached house, holidays etc.