Is it moral to leave tribes alone in the modern world?

[mids2019]

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2024/dec/22/exclusive-photographs-reveal-first-glimpse-of-uncontacted-amazon-community-massaco

Never really understood the reluctance for more intervention with remote people when they are citizens of Brazil and are therefore under the same laws as the rest of the Brazilian populace, have the same right to healthcare, education etc. Also they should have the right to vote in Brazil's democrqcy.

It just feels like a human zoo and sits badly with me.....

I just googled and very interestingly it appears some tribes that were studied had naturally developed antibiotic resistance 😱

And googling forward, we might have to soon learn different cures seeing antibiotic resistance growing and as one article put it "running out of drugs which will work" - paraphrasing.

Garlic it is then

There’s some interesting research around creating little bacteria-eating viruses to use as medicine.

The Mosuo in China are a matriarchy. Their way of life is under threat from, you guessed it, contact with outsiders including Westerners.

Hmmm...
Our remaining GP's and hospitals are overrun with self-inflicted "social diseases" - alcoholism, poor diet, drug dependency, etc - and that is before we add in the superbugs we developed ourselves, so they have little time to treat the sick anyway. I'm going to assume that none of the men in that photo was leaning over a nurse being sick and telling her what a great time he had at the Amazon Arms.

The "enlightenment" saw the ruling class of Europe, and especially the UK, become rich by, amongst other things, commiting genocide against indigenous peoples and profiting from a flourishing slave trade. Somehow it didn't benefit any of my ancestors.

Ah yes, the industrial revolution (from which my ancestors also didn't benefit) which brought us pollution, the beginnings of global warming, diseased cities, industrial illnesses and capitalism. So much to be desired in all that. Profit above people.

Penicillin was discovered by accident, but mould based treatments for injuries were known about and regularly used across the world for centuries before. Just because they didn't know how they worked doesn't mean they were stupid or without treatments.

Of course you are being goady and obtuse - just because there might be some benefits to the western way of life (although now I come to think about it, most of the benefits have stings in the tail) doesn't mena that we should force them on others. Besides which, look at how we forced capitalism on India, and what we got was all our call centres based there!

Why should we impose a different culture on other people when they are perfectly happy as they are with their own culture?

These remote tribes are living in harmony with nature. Perhaps we should be learning from them instead.

It has long been established that pushing ourselves and our way of life onto remote tribes is not only detrimental to them in terms of us introducing them to things like binge drinking, processed foods, and recreational drugs but also deadly to the majority.

They do not have the same exposure to the same viruses we do. Their immune systems cannot cope with the common cold or flu.

I think sometime ours idea of healthcare differs from these tribes and also different cultures and nations differ.

Some cultures (especially western) we've almost come to the point people expect a treatment and cure and answer to everything. Death although the only guarantee in life is to be feared.
Cultures where infant death is still high, death in childbirth is still height etc don't feel everything should have a "cure". They manage their community through life natural processes - birth and death.

I bet no one in a remote tribe is worried about immigration, financial crashes, maybe not pasta and loo roll () and if they are it's the westerners thinking they know better and bringing them disease that will kill them!

Someone up thread mentioned the Taliban and I agree with the poster below response to that. We fought in Afghanistan based on our idea of western culture and how it should run. The taliban taking over and becoming more radicalised could be a direct result of our involvement - we don't know. I'm also not 100% sure if us going in is a good or bad idea - there's arguments on both sides with valid points from both sides.

But evidence shows that western interference in the world hasn't made it more harmonious and been the answer!

What are your views on religious communities O.P, ones who do not want to be part of the world, such as Mormon communities who chose to live by themselves. Should they be forced to be part of the modern world? Even though scientific studies have e shown they are generally healthier and have a longer life expectancy.
I wouldn’t insult them by interfering, just as I wouldn’t insult a tribe by interfering. Who is the judge on these matters? Not me, or you.

Are you genuinely saying that you can't see the difference between people who rely on those things having them taken away with no notice, and people who are currently living quite happily without those things not having them forced upon them?

Or are you on a very obvious wind up?

It’s racism to assume that uncontacted tribes need western intervention, yes - but it’s also racist to assume (as there’s a hint of in some posts on this thread) that uncontacted tribes live in a sort of eden-like social harmony and give birth with no trouble while wandering through the forest etc etc. They are people just like us, they are fallible, scared, joyful, angry, petty, sad, brave. There will be various abusive, cruel practices and kind, altruistic practices in all uncontacted tribes, just like there are in western societies. Respecting uncontacted tribes as people means not patronising them by either forcing our ‘help’ upon them or putting them on a pedestal that denies their humanity and makes them some sort of ‘noble savage’ archetype.

Can I just ask where "the west" starts? Just for clarity if I actually belong to that😂

No, this makes 'your' life better. You can't apply advancements that improve your life to everyone.

I just can't see how supplying advanced healthcare is a cultural imposition. Surely at it's most basic it's altruism removing unnecessary pain and suffering

The advanced healthcare doesn't come on its own. The other stuff it comes with could wipe these people out.

Because tribes have been almost destroyed in the past by us "westerners" barging in and insisting on spending time with them.

They don't have immunity to basic illnesses and many die when they come into contact with the west. Do you really believe we should just go ahead regardless?

But how do you give them Western medicine without exposing them to novel viruses and bacteria that will kill them?

And why is it our place to dictate that they need Western medicine?

These tribes know that modern societies exist. They know where we are if they want to access modern technologies and medical advancements but they've chosen not to.

@Frequency

I guess if they know the technology exists and they refuse that technology there is that right.

However they are making the same decision for their children and that seems more debatable.

I think with the virus issue we are taking about 2024 and there are many means to prevent the passage of viruses and a lot of forms of immunisation. I do get the point but I don't think it's insurmountable clinically

Exactly, it brings new medical problems that didn't exist prior to contact so really I can't see any benefit.

Immunisation could kill them. It's almost like giving adult vaccines to a baby.

Are you dense or just acting like that?

We had worldwide pandemic and have outbreaks of various deadly viruses all the time.
"ViRuS Can Be PreVenteD"

They don't need the immunisation either unless we start stuffing themselves there.
Every parent makes decisions on behalf of their kids. Shall we just imprison or whatever the ones who do not do it to your standard or what is it you are trying to say?

"We want to make you like us. Some of you will die. You will all need medicine which might make more die. BUT! You will have access to hospital, wheremore of you will die due to lack of immunity, and KFC. Good?"

However they are making the same decision for their children and that seems more debatable.

Why is outsiders, who have little understanding of their culture or needs, making the decision that their children need Western intervention for them any different from their parents deciding that they don't?

burning witches at the stake etc

I think if you looked into it a bit more thoroughly, you'd find that witchburning went on until a few hundred years ago with the support of the judiciary and the Church (a capital crime until 1735 in the UK)

If people are concerned about the treatment of women and girls, they can look a lot closer to home for plenty of examples of them being failed, before we get to Afghanistan. We should look a lot closer to home at a lot of things.

I don't imagine the life and culture of these people is perfect any more than Western society is, but what it is is theirs. If we've not learned yet that all we really have to offer them is vast amounts of death from the diseases they have no immunity to as well as huge cultural shock and dissonance, we have learned nothing.

Leave them alone and make sure they are left alone.

Youve never watched any reality tv then?

Or in fact any tv

However they are making the same decision for their children and that seems more debatable.

Just like you make decisions for your children everyday without thinking about what could be different if you lived in North Korea, or China, or Timbuktu, presumably?