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Why are a tiny number of rich farmers dominating the news cycle?

359 replies

InvisibleRadiator · 19/11/2024 23:00

I've been reading around this inheritance tax issue, and the more I read the more I agree with government policy!

For starters the government thinks this will only affect the 500 richest farms and some think this could be as low as 100 farms!
x.com/DanNeidle/status/1852064433738256394

How on earth have such a rich elite managed to whip everyone up into such a frenzy, making it sound like poor old farmer Giles's kids are going to have to sell the family farm when he dies.
The following article explains how when taking into account the IHT property exemption, a married farming couple would not pay IHT unless their assets exceeded £3 million!
www.independent.co.uk/news/business/inheritance-tax-farmers-protest-maths-b2649181.html

And there are so many concessions such as having 10 years to pay, and being half the rate most others pay! And there are many ways to legally reduce the impact of the tax.

It's clear that wealthy investors have been pushing up land prices, and apparently farmers are involved in less than half the land sales now, when compared to 15 years ago.

And now this tiny band of super rich are trying to plead poverty? I don't believe a word of it.

This final article puts it far more eloquently than I ever could.
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/nov/17/farmers-have-hoarded-land-for-too-long-inheritance-tax-will-bring-new-life-to-rural-britain

Good on Labour for standing up for the average person and trying to claw back a tiny portion of generations of inherited wealth for our public services!

OP posts:
Papyrophile · 20/11/2024 21:36

You plebs are perfectly at liberty to take the risk of starting a business too @Portakalkedi, whenever you want. We did. And to do the work of nursing it to profitability. We were plebs in our 30s, and now we are almost 70. Don't hide behind the easy cop outs.

notanothernamechange24 · 20/11/2024 21:40

@OnceUponATimeInTheWest but it doesn't address it at all. The wealthiest will simply put it in trusts because they won't need to borrow against it.

And I wouldn't say a 100% increase in food prices won't have any impact on wealth inequality. It will.
And it will certainly drag more children into the poverty trap

Feelingathomenow · 20/11/2024 21:43

OnceUponATimeInTheWest · 20/11/2024 21:21

So what's your plan to reduce the growing wealth inequality in the UK?

Well it’s certainly not making food production and business ownership unaffordable.

Wealth inequality is not in itself a problem. It’s only a problem with jealousy. What we need to look at is the minimum level of living being experienced.

We need to lower cost of living. Labours strategy will increase cost of living - NI cost and min wage increases will increase cost of living

increase numbers of people in work. Labours strategy is likely to see less employment as a result of higher employment costs and also higher IHT for business owners.

We need to address immigration- there is currently the equivalent of the entire population of Stratford on Avon awaiting processing through the asylum system. Being housed and fed. Where would this money be better spent?

friendlycat · 20/11/2024 21:43

Well said @ notanothernamechange24
What people aren’t understanding here is that the margins for profit are already extremely tight. There simply isn’t loads of yearly profit sloshing around.

If on top of working all hours for low income farmer families now have to find additional revenue to pay inheritance tax that they don’t have, they have no option other than to sell up or sell off portions that then creates yield problems.

The more farms we lose the less food supply we produce for the country. We already don’t produce enough and have to import significant food quantities to meet demand. Being reliant on imported food isn’t a good position to be in for various reasons, not least prices.

Once family farms are sold off they’re not coming back. Reduced food supply automatically creates inflated prices plus prices from abroad. So when in the future you go to the supermarket and see so much produce from other countries and not British it’s a problem.

It really is so far removed from equating the inheritance tax from a regular family home. The implications are far reaching and everything is a chain reaction that takes time to unfold. If this policy stands in the future we will all see the difference and damage to our food supplies.

OrwellianTimes · 20/11/2024 21:59

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

You might be shocked by this, but farmers (rich or poor) produce the food that low income families eat.

Higher cost to farmers = direct higher cost to consumers, making food poverty worse.

OnceUponATimeInTheWest · 20/11/2024 22:03

Feelingathomenow · 20/11/2024 21:43

Well it’s certainly not making food production and business ownership unaffordable.

Wealth inequality is not in itself a problem. It’s only a problem with jealousy. What we need to look at is the minimum level of living being experienced.

We need to lower cost of living. Labours strategy will increase cost of living - NI cost and min wage increases will increase cost of living

increase numbers of people in work. Labours strategy is likely to see less employment as a result of higher employment costs and also higher IHT for business owners.

We need to address immigration- there is currently the equivalent of the entire population of Stratford on Avon awaiting processing through the asylum system. Being housed and fed. Where would this money be better spent?

Interesting. I'm going out on a limb here, but I suspect most people are not OK with the fact that the richest 50 families in the UK hold more wealth than half of the UK population.

Personally I don't think it's jealousy when you realise that the biggest predictor of success in life is how much money your parents had. Or that we live in a gerontocratic inheritocracy, rather than a meritocracy.

My radical plan? Maybe if hard work actually paid off, more people would want to do it.

OnceUponATimeInTheWest · 20/11/2024 22:09

notanothernamechange24 · 20/11/2024 21:40

@OnceUponATimeInTheWest but it doesn't address it at all. The wealthiest will simply put it in trusts because they won't need to borrow against it.

And I wouldn't say a 100% increase in food prices won't have any impact on wealth inequality. It will.
And it will certainly drag more children into the poverty trap

Again, I didn't say it would have no effect, I said it would have a negligible one when compared to the real root cause of wealth inequality - the distribution of property and assets.

I'm not convinced this is the best way to tackle it by any means. I'd probably prefer a massive tax on anyone who owns agricultural land but doesn't personally farm it (so either does nothing or acts as a landlord). However I'm also far from convinced by the farmers arguments either.

ssd · 20/11/2024 22:14

WomanFromTheNorth · 19/11/2024 23:35

It's always the same. You can take away mental health services, libraries, social care - all the things that disproportionately affect people living in poverty; you can see the use of food banks and homelessness go through the roof- nobody bats an eyelid. But come for the privileged and they all start to protest - and, more importantly, the media cover it. It sickens me.

👏👏👏

And anything that shafts that prick Clarkson is fine by me

notanothernamechange24 · 20/11/2024 22:14

@OnceUponATimeInTheWest if they are letting it out to farmers to farm then there is no issue. The land is still productive.
The rents will be low because otherwise nobody would be able to afford them and make any money.
Landowning landlord are an essential part of the farming system. If they were not there then tenant farmers would have no farms to farm.

If you tax them out of business then again you risk long term food security

Lollollol2020 · 20/11/2024 22:44

@Noras wtf are you talking about? It won’t be individuals buying up the land.

OnceUponATimeInTheWest · 20/11/2024 23:17

notanothernamechange24 · 20/11/2024 22:14

@OnceUponATimeInTheWest if they are letting it out to farmers to farm then there is no issue. The land is still productive.
The rents will be low because otherwise nobody would be able to afford them and make any money.
Landowning landlord are an essential part of the farming system. If they were not there then tenant farmers would have no farms to farm.

If you tax them out of business then again you risk long term food security

You may have no issue with it, but being productive is not the only thing that should matter. Otherwise we might as well resurrect serfdom and be done with it.

The land is not going anywhere so why would there be no farms to farm if landlords did not exist? What do landlords offer that could not be done by owner farmers, other than act as unecessary layer that has to be paid (and so increase food costs)?

Lollollol2020 · 20/11/2024 23:18

@OnceUponATimeInTheWest hard work doesn’t pay, however there are lots of us doing just that. We are fucked sideways every which way we turn to better ourselves… whatever your socio economic standing there is always someone on a higher rung to the ladder to you. What’s the point of shooting them down?

CortadoPlease · 20/11/2024 23:21

Nevermind91 · 20/11/2024 00:06

There's some staggeringly ignorant assumptions being made here about farms.
I do the accounts for one of the farms near me.
They have assets of around £2.75m.
Assets- land, livestock, agricultural vehicles, house.
Their income is poor. One of the sons does bar work to help make ends meet.
It's a killer of a profession.
Supermarkets dictate the price of produce to the farms, not the other way round, just so f*ing Tesco and the like can keep prices down for the baying hordes looking for a bargain.

So farmers need to direct their protest against the supermarkets and middle people who clearly take too big a slice of the pie. It makes no economic sense for farmers to earn so little from apparently valuable land.

ByLimeBalonz · 20/11/2024 23:24

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

CortadoPlease · 20/11/2024 23:26

notanothernamechange24 · 20/11/2024 01:02

The trouble is you don't know when you're going to die.
If you gift it on then you can't benefit from the farm in anyway after that. So you can't pass it on and remain living in the farmhouse for example. Even if the person you pass it on to is also living there.

And what if people don't die in the right order. Farming is considered to be the most dangerous profession in the UK now. What if the oldest generation pass it on and the younger generation die first?

… just like anyone else subject to IHT.

friendlycat · 20/11/2024 23:27

Lollollol2020 · 20/11/2024 23:18

@OnceUponATimeInTheWest hard work doesn’t pay, however there are lots of us doing just that. We are fucked sideways every which way we turn to better ourselves… whatever your socio economic standing there is always someone on a higher rung to the ladder to you. What’s the point of shooting them down?

I so agree with you. Of course hard work and determination pays. People don’t just magically get somewhere in life by pure chance. There are also levels of employment heirachy it’s just life. Some take huge financial risk to build a company. But here on MN many want to shoot down the entrepreneurs that take the risk and are rewarded.

OrwellianTimes · 20/11/2024 23:41

CortadoPlease · 20/11/2024 23:21

So farmers need to direct their protest against the supermarkets and middle people who clearly take too big a slice of the pie. It makes no economic sense for farmers to earn so little from apparently valuable land.

Yeah, that’s the way it works. Haha, nice joke.

Morph22010 · 21/11/2024 06:40

JasmineTea11 · 20/11/2024 07:48

And this is exactly what the government is advising them to do.

You won’t get the automatic uplift on cost for capital gains purposes though if it’s gifted like you do if it’s inherited so if someone later sells on the land they have a lower base cost and more capital gains tax. If the land is kept in the the family and gifted on the capital gains issue won’t arise

Feelingathomenow · 21/11/2024 07:43

Morph22010 · 21/11/2024 06:40

You won’t get the automatic uplift on cost for capital gains purposes though if it’s gifted like you do if it’s inherited so if someone later sells on the land they have a lower base cost and more capital gains tax. If the land is kept in the the family and gifted on the capital gains issue won’t arise

And where is the person gifting the farm supposed to go as they have to be totally excluded from benefitting so can’t live there any more (unless they pay market rent). Could also die within 7years - depending on age the insurance quotes I’ve seen for this are fairly high. The government clearly neither understand the IHT rules or the real life consequences of the rules.

Feelingathomenow · 21/11/2024 07:46

This thread just indicates what we e known all along, Labour and their supporters have no idea how real life works and think everything should align to their ideological la la land. Let’s hope people have learned their lesson and we survive the next 4.5 years

Feelingathomenow · 21/11/2024 07:49

friendlycat · 20/11/2024 23:27

I so agree with you. Of course hard work and determination pays. People don’t just magically get somewhere in life by pure chance. There are also levels of employment heirachy it’s just life. Some take huge financial risk to build a company. But here on MN many want to shoot down the entrepreneurs that take the risk and are rewarded.

I do wonder what goes through peoples minds (I’m starting to think, not a lot) I mean who do these people think create the jobs they are demanding ever increasing minimum wage for?

SwordToFlamethrower · 21/11/2024 08:07

Nevermind91 · 20/11/2024 00:06

There's some staggeringly ignorant assumptions being made here about farms.
I do the accounts for one of the farms near me.
They have assets of around £2.75m.
Assets- land, livestock, agricultural vehicles, house.
Their income is poor. One of the sons does bar work to help make ends meet.
It's a killer of a profession.
Supermarkets dictate the price of produce to the farms, not the other way round, just so f*ing Tesco and the like can keep prices down for the baying hordes looking for a bargain.

That's so fucking rude. The "baying hordes" are people who are living in food poverty, working shit jobs or on benefits, trying to put food on the table.

The bad guys are tesco themselves. Look at their profits and what their share holders make.

Damned rude.

Morph22010 · 21/11/2024 08:14

Feelingathomenow · 21/11/2024 07:43

And where is the person gifting the farm supposed to go as they have to be totally excluded from benefitting so can’t live there any more (unless they pay market rent). Could also die within 7years - depending on age the insurance quotes I’ve seen for this are fairly high. The government clearly neither understand the IHT rules or the real life consequences of the rules.

I’m talking about land specifically here, that’s the main advantage the people who hold land passing it in through inheritance rather than just gifting it pre death, that’s why it’s attractive to non farmers who want it to invest and land values have gone up. I’m not commenting on whether this is right or wrong merely stating a fact why it has been so advantageous to pass on as inheritance rather than gifting pre death.

Noras · 21/11/2024 08:19

Farmers seem to think that no one else is aware of realities but we all are. We are all having to pay taxes and have less money.

I have a disabled son who will have to live on benefits and in supported living. There is zero mechanism to support him and not pay IHT. We have to pay for an expensive vulnerable trust so that what we do leave him after IHT is taken is protected from social care claw back .

Families are frantic about their disabled kids, literally waking up at 2am in cold sweats and there is no IHT support or tax free gifting.

So excuse me if I don’t weep for farmers leaving 3 million pounds IHT free and then only paying 20% tax rate with on instalments with zero interest where inflation will erode the debt.

My father’s estate had to pay out 1.5 million but I was one of 5 kids so got not much in comparisons to the tax man especially as due to care situation I could not work.

Now that I have social care for son I can finally get a job and hope to have a pension.

Feelingathomenow · 21/11/2024 08:29

Morph22010 · 21/11/2024 08:14

I’m talking about land specifically here, that’s the main advantage the people who hold land passing it in through inheritance rather than just gifting it pre death, that’s why it’s attractive to non farmers who want it to invest and land values have gone up. I’m not commenting on whether this is right or wrong merely stating a fact why it has been so advantageous to pass on as inheritance rather than gifting pre death.

So you want to split the farm up? What about the out buildings? Shared driveways across the farm. Let’s check out the issues round utilities. Let’s check out the CGT position shall we, we will need to satisfy the business asset hold over relief conditions, so the whole business needs to go. What happens if the next generation dies or gets divorced. As I said no one thinks these things through.

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