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Why are a tiny number of rich farmers dominating the news cycle?

359 replies

InvisibleRadiator · 19/11/2024 23:00

I've been reading around this inheritance tax issue, and the more I read the more I agree with government policy!

For starters the government thinks this will only affect the 500 richest farms and some think this could be as low as 100 farms!
x.com/DanNeidle/status/1852064433738256394

How on earth have such a rich elite managed to whip everyone up into such a frenzy, making it sound like poor old farmer Giles's kids are going to have to sell the family farm when he dies.
The following article explains how when taking into account the IHT property exemption, a married farming couple would not pay IHT unless their assets exceeded £3 million!
www.independent.co.uk/news/business/inheritance-tax-farmers-protest-maths-b2649181.html

And there are so many concessions such as having 10 years to pay, and being half the rate most others pay! And there are many ways to legally reduce the impact of the tax.

It's clear that wealthy investors have been pushing up land prices, and apparently farmers are involved in less than half the land sales now, when compared to 15 years ago.

And now this tiny band of super rich are trying to plead poverty? I don't believe a word of it.

This final article puts it far more eloquently than I ever could.
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/nov/17/farmers-have-hoarded-land-for-too-long-inheritance-tax-will-bring-new-life-to-rural-britain

Good on Labour for standing up for the average person and trying to claw back a tiny portion of generations of inherited wealth for our public services!

OP posts:
EasternStandard · 20/11/2024 19:51

TonTonMacoute · 20/11/2024 19:49

It's so depressing, isn't it? Tiny handful of millionaire farmers 'dominating the headlines', don't make me laugh?! Let's hope they enjoy eating reconstituted insect protein.

It really is

Depressing that is

NoneGiven · 20/11/2024 19:52

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Papyrophile · 20/11/2024 20:24

I'm more than slightly depressed at the antagonism between the city and the country. There's no understanding between the two.

This is clearly not the right time or place to raise the sale of 10 acres locally in a small town in Cornwall for an Islamic burial ground to accommodate 9,000 burials. Cornwall's Muslim population is less than 0.2% of population, so this is being built to accommodate Muslim burials from a wide area. And it has been chosen because it's an easy target. But a great many people who actually live here are quite opposed to the sale of land to bury people with no local link.

I edited this to add in the 9000 burials figure.

allthecoffee100 · 20/11/2024 20:38

Seems many posters on here have NO IDEA about the realities of farming.

Farmers work +70 hour weeks, every single week of the year for less than the minimum wage. They make < 1% profit on their assets - that's < £30k on a £3m farm. So while they may look asset rich they are generally cash poor.
So how could they pay this IHT without selling off the assets that they need to make a small profit?!! They want to farm, they don't want to sell their assets.

They do it because it's in their blood. It's hard to understand. I grew up on a farm. I always said I'd never marry a farmer - I like weekends, holidays, a decent wage. Basically I'm far too lazy - like the vast majority of the population and all the keyboard warriors on here. It's a very tough job. And this governance seems hell bent on making it harder, it's very very sad and very frustrating.

Yes, close the tax loop holes to stop the likes of Dyson buying up more of the country, but setting the threshold so low that average family farms are ruined in the process shows either a total lack of understanding or a lack of care for UK farmings. And once it's gone it won't come back and I dread to think what we'll be eating and the cost of it.

notanothernamechange24 · 20/11/2024 20:42

Decided to write a post to kind of myth bust a lot of what is being said around the agricultural Inheritance Tax issue. Because this issue is important to EVERYONE and will affect all of us.
It’s going to be a long post but please read it in full.

What has changed?
So with the budget the government has removed both APR relief and BPR relief from all businesses.
APR = Agricultural Property Relief - this covers the land, the buildings and the farmhouse.
BPR = Business Property Relief - this covers the machinery, equipment, livestock, consumables such as seed and fertiliser and crop in the ground.
Now the first million of combined assets from both APR and BPR is IHT free and anything over 1 million is taxed at 20%.
Under certain conditions it MIGHT be possible for SOME farms to get up to 3 million tax free. But that doesn't work for all. It’s a case of if your circumstances meet the exact criteria your ok if not you won’t get the full 3 million.

When the government talk about 500 farms per year being affected they are only talking about the APR proportion of the tax. They have deliberately excluded talking about the fact that BPR is also included and taxed.

The NFU are saying that 75% of family farms will be affected.

  • it will also include a significant number of tenant farmers as they still will be affected by BPR.
BPR will also affect a number of other industries as well. Haulage firms, Contractors and any businesses with high asset values comparative to income will be badly affected.

At the same time subsidies are being cut by 70% in some cases
Tax on fertiliser is going up by £50 per ton.
Tax on domestic vehicles is going up over 200%
NI for employers is going up.

Why shouldn't farmers pay tax like every other business?
Because quite simply farming doesn't work like any other business does. Most businesses work out their pricing by working out the cost of production + profit and tax. They are in control of who they sell to. When component prices go up so to does the selling price.
Farming doesn't work like that. Farmers have little to no control over prices.
The combination of global markets, supermarket competition and subsidized food control the prices.
At the same time input costs and yields are not controllable either. Weather conditions play a huge role in how good the harvest is. Unless you are able to grow all your feed for your livestock there can be huge variation year to year on feed prices.

Farming is a high asset value to low income business. It is unique purely because it is a rubbish business model. But it is a necessary business. Without it quite simply we would have no food.

Why do farms make so little return?

A lot of the foods you buy are subsidised by the government and has been for decades.
if we had to pay the full costs we would have an even more serious poverty issue than we have already.

After the war in the 1950s we had a serious issue with malnutrition and issues like rickets. Food was short and expensive. The country on its knees after the horrors of the 1940s. In order to combat that the government subsidised lots of essential foods. So the public were paying artificially low prices for things like milk. They then paid the farmers a subsidy to partially make up the shortfall

For context in the 1980s people were paying approximately 25% of their household income on average on food.
Today it is approximately 13% so half.

A pint of milk was equal to two pints of beer
Now beer per pint is 13 x more expensive than a pint of milk.

If people want farmers to go back to paying IHT then they will need to double what they pay for food.

Can you afford that? Can everyone you know afford it?

It’s important to note too that even with subsidies farmers still do not get the full value of what they produce.

What about people buying land to avoid paying tax?
The likes of Clarkson and Dyson buying land is a red herring. That land is still in the business production of food. It's doing what's needed.

Many many big landowners rent agricultural land out at very reasonable rates for tenant farmers. They do so because they don't need the money for the rent (it needs to cover its cost not much more) because the payoff comes in the form of reduced IHT.

I personally know a farmer who rented land for 17 years from a landowner. Then when landowner was considering selling up he sold it to the farmer at a really good price and guaranteed the farmers mortgage!

That said though this budget will do nothing to deter those who seek to reduce their IHT bill as it will still be the cheapest way of reducing IHT bill.

But farmers voted for Brexit
farmers voted for brexit in no greater numbers percentage wise than any other profession.
Don't make sweeping judgments without actually knowing the FACTS.

Farmers are no more responsible for brexit than any other profession

What about Gifting the farm?

The trouble is you don't know when you're going to die.
If you gift it on then you can't benefit from the farm in anyway after that. So you can't pass it on and remain living in the farmhouse for example. Even if the person you pass it on to is also living there.

And what if people don't die in the right order. Farming is considered to be the most dangerous profession in the UK now. What if the oldest generation pass it on and the younger generation die first?

Putting land in trusts is also complicated. For large landowners that is probably what they will do. So therefore the very wealthy will still avoid IHT.

But for the majority of farms putting it in a trust doesn’t work because once it’s in a trust you can’t borrow against it. So you can’t raise a loan or mortgage against it. This will slow or halt development and progression.

What are the potential consequences of this?
If we lose too many family farms due to this tax then they are likely gone forever. Other farmers won’t be able to buy up all the available land - they simply don’t have the money especially now.

If food production here reduces we become even more vulnerable to the instability of global markets.
At best it would mean price hikes at worst if there were to be another major war or global disaster we could have serious food shortages. You only have to think back to the panic in 2020 with covid to see the potential for chaos.

allthecoffee100 · 20/11/2024 20:45

@XmasMarkets farmers may be millionaires on paper - but they are cash poor. How do you propose they pay this IHT when the profits they make from those assets are so small? They DONT WANT to sell up, they want to farm. It's in their dna.

And don't worry, If they did sell up and realise the value of the assets then they then pay IHT like the rest of us!

NoneGiven · 20/11/2024 20:46

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

allthecoffee100 · 20/11/2024 20:55

@NoneGiven I think you'll find many farms have already diversified to help them stay afloat as farmers are very enterprising, they have to be. I bet you're full of ideas on how they can diversify to easily make another £50k / year to pay an IHT aren't you!

Feelingathomenow · 20/11/2024 20:55

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

And that “side hustle” will also carry value.oh and the value of that will be taken off the £1m that qualifies for APR and potentially cause more of a claw back of the residential property relief. So congratulations, you have just made that Farmers IHT problem worse!

NoneGiven · 20/11/2024 20:56

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

notanothernamechange24 · 20/11/2024 20:57

@NoneGiven please read fully my above post

Nanny0gg · 20/11/2024 21:02

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 19/11/2024 23:31

when supermarkets already pay far below cost

I don't believe that for one minute. The money going into a business has to equal or exceed the money going out. A farm running at a loss would rapidly cease trading, like any other business.

Edited

At one point that's why there were subsidies.

Farmers don't make profit from milk for a start

Nanny0gg · 20/11/2024 21:02

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

The same way they're targeting the wealthy pensioners when cutting off the winter fuel allowance?

Really?

allthecoffee100 · 20/11/2024 21:03

@NoneGiven you have no idea. I hope you're just trying to wind people up rather than actually believing this as you are so wrong!

NoneGiven · 20/11/2024 21:04

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Feelingathomenow · 20/11/2024 21:08

notanothernamechange24 · 20/11/2024 20:42

Decided to write a post to kind of myth bust a lot of what is being said around the agricultural Inheritance Tax issue. Because this issue is important to EVERYONE and will affect all of us.
It’s going to be a long post but please read it in full.

What has changed?
So with the budget the government has removed both APR relief and BPR relief from all businesses.
APR = Agricultural Property Relief - this covers the land, the buildings and the farmhouse.
BPR = Business Property Relief - this covers the machinery, equipment, livestock, consumables such as seed and fertiliser and crop in the ground.
Now the first million of combined assets from both APR and BPR is IHT free and anything over 1 million is taxed at 20%.
Under certain conditions it MIGHT be possible for SOME farms to get up to 3 million tax free. But that doesn't work for all. It’s a case of if your circumstances meet the exact criteria your ok if not you won’t get the full 3 million.

When the government talk about 500 farms per year being affected they are only talking about the APR proportion of the tax. They have deliberately excluded talking about the fact that BPR is also included and taxed.

The NFU are saying that 75% of family farms will be affected.

  • it will also include a significant number of tenant farmers as they still will be affected by BPR.
BPR will also affect a number of other industries as well. Haulage firms, Contractors and any businesses with high asset values comparative to income will be badly affected.

At the same time subsidies are being cut by 70% in some cases
Tax on fertiliser is going up by £50 per ton.
Tax on domestic vehicles is going up over 200%
NI for employers is going up.

Why shouldn't farmers pay tax like every other business?
Because quite simply farming doesn't work like any other business does. Most businesses work out their pricing by working out the cost of production + profit and tax. They are in control of who they sell to. When component prices go up so to does the selling price.
Farming doesn't work like that. Farmers have little to no control over prices.
The combination of global markets, supermarket competition and subsidized food control the prices.
At the same time input costs and yields are not controllable either. Weather conditions play a huge role in how good the harvest is. Unless you are able to grow all your feed for your livestock there can be huge variation year to year on feed prices.

Farming is a high asset value to low income business. It is unique purely because it is a rubbish business model. But it is a necessary business. Without it quite simply we would have no food.

Why do farms make so little return?

A lot of the foods you buy are subsidised by the government and has been for decades.
if we had to pay the full costs we would have an even more serious poverty issue than we have already.

After the war in the 1950s we had a serious issue with malnutrition and issues like rickets. Food was short and expensive. The country on its knees after the horrors of the 1940s. In order to combat that the government subsidised lots of essential foods. So the public were paying artificially low prices for things like milk. They then paid the farmers a subsidy to partially make up the shortfall

For context in the 1980s people were paying approximately 25% of their household income on average on food.
Today it is approximately 13% so half.

A pint of milk was equal to two pints of beer
Now beer per pint is 13 x more expensive than a pint of milk.

If people want farmers to go back to paying IHT then they will need to double what they pay for food.

Can you afford that? Can everyone you know afford it?

It’s important to note too that even with subsidies farmers still do not get the full value of what they produce.

What about people buying land to avoid paying tax?
The likes of Clarkson and Dyson buying land is a red herring. That land is still in the business production of food. It's doing what's needed.

Many many big landowners rent agricultural land out at very reasonable rates for tenant farmers. They do so because they don't need the money for the rent (it needs to cover its cost not much more) because the payoff comes in the form of reduced IHT.

I personally know a farmer who rented land for 17 years from a landowner. Then when landowner was considering selling up he sold it to the farmer at a really good price and guaranteed the farmers mortgage!

That said though this budget will do nothing to deter those who seek to reduce their IHT bill as it will still be the cheapest way of reducing IHT bill.

But farmers voted for Brexit
farmers voted for brexit in no greater numbers percentage wise than any other profession.
Don't make sweeping judgments without actually knowing the FACTS.

Farmers are no more responsible for brexit than any other profession

What about Gifting the farm?

The trouble is you don't know when you're going to die.
If you gift it on then you can't benefit from the farm in anyway after that. So you can't pass it on and remain living in the farmhouse for example. Even if the person you pass it on to is also living there.

And what if people don't die in the right order. Farming is considered to be the most dangerous profession in the UK now. What if the oldest generation pass it on and the younger generation die first?

Putting land in trusts is also complicated. For large landowners that is probably what they will do. So therefore the very wealthy will still avoid IHT.

But for the majority of farms putting it in a trust doesn’t work because once it’s in a trust you can’t borrow against it. So you can’t raise a loan or mortgage against it. This will slow or halt development and progression.

What are the potential consequences of this?
If we lose too many family farms due to this tax then they are likely gone forever. Other farmers won’t be able to buy up all the available land - they simply don’t have the money especially now.

If food production here reduces we become even more vulnerable to the instability of global markets.
At best it would mean price hikes at worst if there were to be another major war or global disaster we could have serious food shortages. You only have to think back to the panic in 2020 with covid to see the potential for chaos.

Thank you. Great post. And yes to the issue also affecting BPR. In some ways that’s going to be even worse as the owner can’t sell any shares generally to fund. How many small businesses are going to be wound up rather than leave the next generation with an unpayable IHT bill.

Im still waiting for the announcement where you can settle the IHT by gifting a share in the business or farm to the government- just imagine that level of government involvement in farms and private businesses

curious79 · 20/11/2024 21:09

Good agricultural land is c£9k an acre. You’d only need 200 acres to start hitting the inheritance tax threshold but you won’t be making any money on that farm, well not enough to pay the IHT bill. This will cause break up of farms. They’ll be bought by large agricultural businesses who’ll rip out hedges and spray them to shlt. It’s just one more step into the destruction of rural communities

EasternStandard · 20/11/2024 21:09

Feelingathomenow · 20/11/2024 21:08

Thank you. Great post. And yes to the issue also affecting BPR. In some ways that’s going to be even worse as the owner can’t sell any shares generally to fund. How many small businesses are going to be wound up rather than leave the next generation with an unpayable IHT bill.

Im still waiting for the announcement where you can settle the IHT by gifting a share in the business or farm to the government- just imagine that level of government involvement in farms and private businesses

Oof. Don't give Starmer and co ideas now

Feelingathomenow · 20/11/2024 21:11

EasternStandard · 20/11/2024 21:09

Oof. Don't give Starmer and co ideas now

Oh I’m sure that’s already their plan. All property is theft in their eyes

OnceUponATimeInTheWest · 20/11/2024 21:21

Feelingathomenow · 20/11/2024 21:11

Oh I’m sure that’s already their plan. All property is theft in their eyes

Edited

So what's your plan to reduce the growing wealth inequality in the UK?

Papyrophile · 20/11/2024 21:24

Seriously, it is already virtually impossible to sell SMEs as going concerns when the founder-owner wants to retire. DH is this person, and wants to sell to retire, but anyone even faintly interested wants an earn out period, followed by a retainer advisor term. Which would make DH 75 before he stopped thinking about running his business.

Papyrophile · 20/11/2024 21:25

OnceUponATimeInTheWest · 20/11/2024 21:21

So what's your plan to reduce the growing wealth inequality in the UK?

Maybe expect slightly more initiative from the average person?

notanothernamechange24 · 20/11/2024 21:25

@OnceUponATimeInTheWest why is that the farmers responsibility to solve

And the result of this budget will send food prices souring - which if you read my above comment you might realise.
So ultimately this budget will increase wealth inequality in this country.

Portakalkedi · 20/11/2024 21:29

Agree. Anyone with assets worth millions surely obtains legal advice to set up trusts or companies, and re tax avoidance dodges, as most wealthy folks do. Paying what you should is just for us plebs.

OnceUponATimeInTheWest · 20/11/2024 21:36

notanothernamechange24 · 20/11/2024 21:25

@OnceUponATimeInTheWest why is that the farmers responsibility to solve

And the result of this budget will send food prices souring - which if you read my above comment you might realise.
So ultimately this budget will increase wealth inequality in this country.

I didn't say it was. It's all of our responsibility.

I did read your comment. A rise in the price of food (if that actually happens) is going to have a negligible effect on wealth inequality, which is far more tied to assets and property and which is what this is policy is trying to address, regardless of what we might think of it.