Riders by Jilly Cooper - prequel to Rivals

[RedRobyn2021]

Decided to start listening to Riders by Jilly Cooper after watching Rivals

Quite shocked it's been written by a woman, the women are objectified, the men are rapey

Is it just me? Have you read it?

I looked it up and apparently Jilly Cooper wrote it in 1970, does this go some way to explaining why it's written like this?

I'm preserving with it, I'm on Chapter 13 but I think Rupert is a repulsive creep and can't understand why everyone is so obsessed with him

She wrote what she knew. That’s the whole point.

Don’t be shocked that a woman wrote it, be shocked that a woman can write men so brilliantly. Some of the conversations between the men are almost verbatim what I heard in offices in the very early nineties.

Also, no one write heartbreak and longing like Jilly - When Helen is getting grumpy at Regina House because Rupert hasn’t rung. Tory mooning after Jake, and how he so desperately breaks her heart. And how she describes the English countryside. The wildlife, the dogs and horses. Some of the scenes she writes - I can see it so vividly in my head I swear I could paint a physical picture of Rupert’s kitchen or Daisy McCloud’s cottage or Lysander’s bedroom etc etc. Her descriptive writing is on par with Margaret Mitchell, IMO.

There is usually an arc to her characters. Sometimes it takes them a couple of books to redeem themselves - you probably think Jake is nice at the moment. But stop at TMWMHJ - that’s the last good one really.

How have I judged you?

This is the first Jilly Cooper book I've ever read, I didn't know much about her.

Are you trying to say that rape, sexual assault and misogyny are ok because it was socially acceptable in the 80s? Are you trying to say I'm judging women from the 80s because I think it's repulsive that men behaved like this?

Can't I think these men are disgusting and not be judging women?

I understand exactly what you are saying @RedRobyn2021 because I was expecting a very lightweight romcom type book, Jolly Hockey Sticks and Ponies and was taken aback by what it actually is.

@AgathaMystery brilliantly explained. I agree with everything you said.
Ruperts kitchen and bedroom and the gardens of Penscombe are so clear in my mind.

And the English countryside in spring is so well written. I can clearly picture what Sailor and Macaulay look like. And Revenge and Rocky and Badger. I was annoyed in the adaptation of Rivals that Rocky was the wrong colour and also most definitely not the right breeding for a retired Olympic show jumper. It’s a small detail that could so easily have been right.

And yes the heartbreak. The bleakness for Fen is so relatable.

@RedRobyn2021 no there is no rape in Twilight. But it is an unhealthy relationship with dangerous religious ideals wrapped up in a charming nice man…. Much harder to spot the baddy for younger readers

And yes, if you follow through to TMWMHJ you get a good arc of the characters. And in that one it’s the hot young lead who ends up with the less conventionally attractive older woman. And they have a healthy blissfully happy relationship which Rupert obverse and ponders on…
Randaldini is a very obvious baddy as well.

In the later books there are some touching moments with Etta remembering her late husband and forgiving him his affairs. And it’s just so poignant. Like Jilly was speaking to Leo from her book. I always thought she crafted Etta on herself. And actually that’s a good example of Jilly in later books having. Rich powerful man shun the young mainstream beauties and falling for the much older, kinder women

Yes you're right, this is a very good point

It doesn't mean that I judge anyone for being a fan, I'm going on to read Polo, but it's ok to be thrown by displays of outdated attitudes I think.

This has been a great book club chat about these books. And interesting that despite all the varying comments. I agree with pretty much all of them. Who knew Jilly Cooper had such hidden depths 😁

It kind of reminds me of the sort men who were on Made in Chelsea

Such good points and I agree re: Rocky. Why they didn’t get Jilly or Princess Anne to pick him I don’t know. He was straight out of stunt horse central casting! Ha.

I think the series was perfect except for an mis-cast Rupert (obvs) and Rocky. Also, Helen wasn’t quite on the money for me.

God the books are so richly descriptive aren’t they. No one writes like her. I could read them all day. The Daisy/Drew storyline is heavenly.

Hard agree

I cannot read that book, the times ive tried I've felt so furious I've had to stop

@EineReiseDurchDieZeit be warned polo probably has the worst details of animal cruelty. Which have been deliberately written to cause a stir and a wake up.
If you love animals there are a few quite upsetting bits in the polo yard in Argentina

It’s still a good books, but not as good as rivals or riders. And TMWMHJ is better

This is exactly what I thought hahaha

@Thesebloominhorses I'm definitely planning on finishing the book, I'm so intrigued by this character arc

I don't see how he can be redeemed after beating his defenceless horse

Also this whole sob story about his childhood, his mother is blamed entirely, but Rupert's father abandoned him too yet gets no flack (not so far as I've read anyway)

Come back next year when you’ve read them all 😇

The character arc goes over several books as I recall. Sometimes RCB is villain, sometimes hero but always a “difficult” man.
In her favour IMO sex is generally represented positively as a natural thing and not as something dark & vicious. She is pretty sympathetics to gay people too, with well drawn and loveable characters (Charles, Dame Enid for example).

Hard agree with your posts @AgathaMystery

Jilly also wrote women who actually liked sex, not common to read back then

@TheSecondMrsCampbellBlack she does write women who enjoy sex yes!
Fen losing her virginity was depicted quite sweetly. And there are some bits where Rupert is not seen as great in bed. And other more considerate men who are considerate of their parters pleasure are depicted as preferable.

@RedRobyn2021 hes not exactly redeemed. More that he gets his comeuppance and is humbled. For a bit anyway 😂

Yes of course his mum is blamed. Mums are always blamed, even now. Even more so back then.

And how far are you in? Up to chapter 14 it’s just an intro to the characters really. Whenever I read it now I start at chapter 15. That’s when the story really gets going.

Are you reading or listening? I think reading allows the charter to form more closely in your mind. But appreciate that’s not for everyone.

And I agree, I am probably very nostalgic for those books. As a teenager I wanted to be Fenella Maxwell more than anything in the world.

As long as Jilly is not getting the blame for inventing the misogyny and dodgy behaviour of toxic stereotypes, and it’s understood that she was just writing life as it was then, warts and all, chronicling a time with expertise - the conversations, the clothes, the bed linen. I remember longing for, not a pony, but a drive lined with mushrooms that would light up.

I’ve always thought Mr Darcy was a crashing snob and don’t get me started on Heathcliff and all those red flags.

We all know Freddie’s the one to go for.

SPOILERS
SPOILERS

It's mentioned several times about RCB's dad being married 4 times (tells you everything you need to know about where his priorities were)
And later he does make an appearance and cause RCB some grief- Rup definitely needed the Mumsnet Stately home for that dilemma- but Rup definitely did his duty as a son despite everything.

*
Stately Home Thread ...

Sneaks in to say that Riders isn't a prequel. It was written first. Rivals is a sequel to Riders.
😳🤦‍♀️

But rape, sexual assault and misogyny were not acceptable back then but you can’t eradicate them by not writing about them. JC addressed animal cruelty, bullying and corruption in her books in order to promote discussion. Don’t you think that the sexual content was also meant to introduce discussion at a time it when people were finding it easier to talk about.
Had she written her books back in the 60s they would not have been published. The only way you can address these issues is by forcing people to talk about them.

I think JC was a clever commentator, many women read her books and enjoyed them. They did spark early discussion about consent and the realisation that not all behaviour was fine. Most women were far too embarrassed to discuss their sexual lives so had no idea how some behaviour was unacceptable. It took books like these for us to realise.

I’m afraid that there are still young men who behave like the characters in JC’s books, things haven’t changed that much.

I really felt that the 50 shades series was a real step backwards. Particularly the control elements.

50 shades was terrible - it was really boring (after Jilly Cooper and Jackie Collins.
I read the first one to see what all the fuss was about - still don't know.
Got half way through the second and gave up.....googled the ending/book 3.
Seemed CG was a bit of a 'nutter' which I find the ultimate turn off