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Ambulance service: this needs to end

153 replies

Nichebitch · 28/09/2024 23:48

Hear me out. My dd6 had an accident at the playground and badly hurt her back - she couldn’t move, couldn’t stand, had difficulty breathing and was in a lot of pain. At some point lips turning blue so we called 911.
And I really get it - they told me that as she could still draw a breath and was not bleeding, we would have to wait, they didn’t think it was a life or death situation. BUT - how is it tolerable to leave an agonising and not able to move small child with breathing difficulties waiting, with orders of not to move her, for over 1 hour. The ambulance never came, she seemed to be able to wiggle herself a bit so we decided to take a cab to the hospital - seen in under 20m. She’s recovering now.
not criticising the ambulance people, that’s not my point. The hospital wasn’t rammed either. But more people need to speak about this because it’s not bloody normal. I don’t know what the solution is nor should I know, it’s not my effing job.

OP posts:
XjustagirlX · 29/09/2024 11:06

LovedFedAndNoonesDead · 29/09/2024 10:47

No, I wasn’t given wrong advice to attend A&E; I was given emergency treatment at the GP surgery which didn’t relieve the situation and and it was deemed that I needed to be in hospital hence being sent there by blue light ambulance which was called by the GP; and, after spending best part of 24 hours from when the GP made the decision I needed to be in hospital, was told the only reason they were discharging me was because I didn’t need BiPAP or ITU level treatment and they had no beds available.

Just because you are deemed to need an ambulance by a gp or 111 doesn’t mean you actually need one! If it was a true emergency you wouldn’t have been sat around for 24 hours. The genuine true emergencies are triaged up the queue and dealt with quicker.

you only had influenza (as did I) and turns out it wasn’t actually an accident or an emergency.

they didn’t turn you away because they had no beds but that’s what they told you. I guarantee if you had been dying they would have found some space for you. They told you to go home because your case wasn’t urgent enough.

XjustagirlX · 29/09/2024 11:09

LovedFedAndNoonesDead · 29/09/2024 10:54

Actually, someone with a fractured dislocation of an ankle is at risk of losing part of the limb if blood flow to the foot is compromised and, in that situation, a 999 call for an ambulance is entirely justified. There is a window of opportunity to get adequate pain relief into a patient and relocate the joint before loss of blood flow starts to do real damage to tissue below the dislocation and risk the long term health of the limb; and it will usually be done in the field before transporting the patient to an appropriate centre for ongoing treatment including possible surgery to stabilise the joint.

But it’s not justified anymore. It’s much quicker to get yourself to hospital. And if it’s that important re blood flow etc then you will be triaged that way in a&e.

let’s let the paramedics help those people having strokes, heart attacks, RTAs and babies choking.

MagentaRavioli · 29/09/2024 11:11

The thing is that the ambulance control room made the right call in your dd’s case, as you were able to get her to hospital independently and the delay wasn’t critical. Perhaps by delaying the ambulance for your dd the NHS was able to save the life of another person.

i write this in the full knowledge I would have called an ambulance in the same situation. It sounds horrible and I hope your dd is recovering quickly.

Silvertulips · 29/09/2024 11:12

let’s let the paramedics help those people having strokes, heart attacks, RTAs and babies choking

GM had a stroke, mum was advised it would be about 5 hours for an ambulance - mum rallied the neighbours to carry GM into the car - she was on a trolley in a corridor for 48 hours.

The service needs to train more people, pay for university and increase the wages. It’s not a job for the faint hearted.

chisanunian · 29/09/2024 11:16

A friend had an accident a few weeks ago, got knocked out, head injury, blood everywhere. The person who called for an ambulance was told there would be a 4 hour wait for an ambulance to come out, so they would need someone to drive them to hospital instead. Once at the hospital, they were triaged and then sat there for over 6 hours before being seen, still covered in blood, and everyone else in the waiting room going WTF?

LovedFedAndNoonesDead · 29/09/2024 11:21

XjustagirlX · 29/09/2024 11:09

But it’s not justified anymore. It’s much quicker to get yourself to hospital. And if it’s that important re blood flow etc then you will be triaged that way in a&e.

let’s let the paramedics help those people having strokes, heart attacks, RTAs and babies choking.

For some it is quicker to get to hospital independently - not everyone!!

If I were to fracture or dislocate an ankle, it’s either 2 buses and a 20 minute walk to the hospital, at taxi that costs £50 each way or an ambulance to get there. Funnily enough, a trip on public transport would be impossible with an unsupported fractured ankle (see the 20 minute walk involved!), taxi would be fine if we had a spare £50 for one and no one else in my household drives but me so there’s no family member who could pop me in their car for the trip.

Yes, in an ideal world, no one would use an ambulance unless they were in the throes of a massive MI, a stroke, had a limb hanging off or was in the middle of an anaphylactic reaction but that’s simply not the case and people in many other situations have to use ambulances - and, if the ambulance service deem it unnecessary, they would not send one!

Silvertulips · 29/09/2024 11:21

Head injuries alway produce a lot of blood even the smallest cut.

I saw a woman having a miscarriage sat in the waiting room in a towel - with a 2 year old running round - it was nearly midnight.

XjustagirlX · 29/09/2024 12:05

LovedFedAndNoonesDead · 29/09/2024 11:21

For some it is quicker to get to hospital independently - not everyone!!

If I were to fracture or dislocate an ankle, it’s either 2 buses and a 20 minute walk to the hospital, at taxi that costs £50 each way or an ambulance to get there. Funnily enough, a trip on public transport would be impossible with an unsupported fractured ankle (see the 20 minute walk involved!), taxi would be fine if we had a spare £50 for one and no one else in my household drives but me so there’s no family member who could pop me in their car for the trip.

Yes, in an ideal world, no one would use an ambulance unless they were in the throes of a massive MI, a stroke, had a limb hanging off or was in the middle of an anaphylactic reaction but that’s simply not the case and people in many other situations have to use ambulances - and, if the ambulance service deem it unnecessary, they would not send one!

An ambulance is not a free taxi service!

You pay the £50 in a taxi if you have it, you beg a neighbour or friend or wider family member to take you, you borrow £50 off someone, put a plea on facebook for a lift.

If all of these are truly genuinely not possible you need to take some responsibility that you should widen your village for emergencies like this. Become friendly with your neighbours, get some more friends, keep a stash of money saved up for such an event.

very few people would not be able to do one of the above options.

DublinBlowIn · 29/09/2024 13:09

XjustagirlX · 29/09/2024 11:09

But it’s not justified anymore. It’s much quicker to get yourself to hospital. And if it’s that important re blood flow etc then you will be triaged that way in a&e.

let’s let the paramedics help those people having strokes, heart attacks, RTAs and babies choking.

It’s not just about speed though is it? It’s about making a bad situation worse by destabilising an injury.

the fact that you - and others - are on this thread arguing that even when a GP decides an ambulance is required, that patients are “part of the problem” by not turning down the ambulance, is indicative of how far we have fallen.

XjustagirlX · 29/09/2024 14:25

DublinBlowIn · 29/09/2024 13:09

It’s not just about speed though is it? It’s about making a bad situation worse by destabilising an injury.

the fact that you - and others - are on this thread arguing that even when a GP decides an ambulance is required, that patients are “part of the problem” by not turning down the ambulance, is indicative of how far we have fallen.

I agree about not making a problem worse. But there is quite a difference between a broken hip or back to a broken ankle.

do you genuinely not realise there is a problem with gps and 111 over referring to a&e/ambulance when it is not required?

we need to all consider if an ambulance is the correct route for our need.

we also need to hire more paramedics, pay them well for a really difficult job, improve our gps and 111 to free up a&e fir actual accidents and emergencies.

NoNameisGoodEnough · 29/09/2024 14:25

The problem is the cuts to social care budgets thanks to the 'austerity' policy. That money has never come back even when the policy supposedly ended. Local Authorities are expected to do much more on less money and that doesn't add up so patients are stuck in hospital beds waiting for either a nursing home place or a home care package to be put in place so they can leave the bed. This can take days. Therefore the patients are stuck in A&E waiting for that bed to be available and the ambulances are stuck outside A & E to hand over patients. No additional money should be invested in the NHS until a substantial amount is spent on social care. I bet that would solve a lot of the NHS issues. Also, scrap some of the 'manager of paperclips' type roles in the NHS and pay for some more actual nurses.

Having said all this, my DD was recently in a car accident. Both parties not physically injured thank goodness but an ambulance was called by the witnesses who saw the incident as it was a nasty smash and they weren't to know there were no internal injuries. By the time DH and I got there, we were told by the police who attended, ambulance expected to be an hour and a half so to consider making own way to hospital to have her checked out. Then lo and behold the ambulance arrived within the next 10 mins. Great service.

However, a few days later DD was having neck and head pain. She called 111 for advice and they were insisting on calling her an ambulance. She absolutely refused as she knew she didn't need one but they wouldn't leave it until she confirmed I would take her to be checked over in A & E. They insisted it had to be A & E too, not just the walk in centre. So we duly went. DD was told whiplash and to manage it with ibuprofen and paracetamol. We really didn't need to be seen in A&E but 111 scared the life out of us. I know they can only go on what they are told and, knowing she had been in a RTA recently, they were erring on the side of caution but I do think, sometimes 111 adds to the issue rather than helps.

jessycake · 29/09/2024 14:59

It's not right , but that is how far we have fallen in this country.

DublinBlowIn · 29/09/2024 15:24

do you genuinely not realise there is a problem with gps and 111 over referring to a&e/ambulance when it is not required?
we need to all consider if an ambulance is the correct route for our need

no. medical practitioners or appropriately qualified call handlers need to make that determination. If GPs are over referring then that is something that the NHS need to fix with GPs not expect the general public to second guess professional opinion.

but i suspect GPs/111 aren’t over referring based on medical need, rather availability of services doesn’t meet demand and so instead of increasing services we’re all being asked to reconsider what is in fact an emergency.

that’s not right

Createcreate23 · 29/09/2024 15:47

XjustagirlX · 29/09/2024 11:06

Just because you are deemed to need an ambulance by a gp or 111 doesn’t mean you actually need one! If it was a true emergency you wouldn’t have been sat around for 24 hours. The genuine true emergencies are triaged up the queue and dealt with quicker.

you only had influenza (as did I) and turns out it wasn’t actually an accident or an emergency.

they didn’t turn you away because they had no beds but that’s what they told you. I guarantee if you had been dying they would have found some space for you. They told you to go home because your case wasn’t urgent enough.

I had influenza, was in the hospital at the time with my DC upstairs from A&E. I was so so so so poorly - got downstairs at 8pm and was in recuse for the first time in my life ( never even been hospitalised before ) by 8.05.
sats 60, heart rate of nearly 200. If I had been at home I would never of managed to drive there.

XjustagirlX · 29/09/2024 15:51

Createcreate23 · 29/09/2024 15:47

I had influenza, was in the hospital at the time with my DC upstairs from A&E. I was so so so so poorly - got downstairs at 8pm and was in recuse for the first time in my life ( never even been hospitalised before ) by 8.05.
sats 60, heart rate of nearly 200. If I had been at home I would never of managed to drive there.

Edited

And I’m sure if you were at home and that ill then you could have got family or friends to take you to a&e or got a taxi. Not sure what your point is.

XjustagirlX · 29/09/2024 15:52

DublinBlowIn · 29/09/2024 15:24

do you genuinely not realise there is a problem with gps and 111 over referring to a&e/ambulance when it is not required?
we need to all consider if an ambulance is the correct route for our need

no. medical practitioners or appropriately qualified call handlers need to make that determination. If GPs are over referring then that is something that the NHS need to fix with GPs not expect the general public to second guess professional opinion.

but i suspect GPs/111 aren’t over referring based on medical need, rather availability of services doesn’t meet demand and so instead of increasing services we’re all being asked to reconsider what is in fact an emergency.

that’s not right

Haha have a look at the second post just above yours.

iwfja · 29/09/2024 16:19

Nichebitch · 29/09/2024 00:41

It doesn’t work like this in other countries in Europe where health care is also free. In the UK there’s this strange conviction that because is free we it’s all good and that’s the only way it can be.

Which European countries are you talking about?
I'm in Austria. Healthcare is not "free". You have to be paying in via work/unemployment benefit contributions etc. If you are not paying in in some way, you are not entitled to "free" healthcare. You have a chip card which is put into a reader when you go to the doctor and if it says you aren't insured you won't receive treatment. If it's life and death they would treat you but it's possible you could end up getting charged for it afterwards.
Some of the Krankenkasse (the state health insurance companies) have an excess you have to pay yourself. I have to pay 20% of the cost of all treatments. Hospital treatment and operations are free at the point of use but you have to pay a daily charge of between 15 and 30 Euros for everyday in hospital.
It is not "free" like you seem to think.

As for the ambulance service... in most places it is run by volunteers from the Red Cross. They are not paramedics. They are very well trained and do a fantastic job. They usually get to people pretty quickly but you don't receive the same level of care you would from a fully trained paramedic. A local emergency doctor should show up pretty quickly and then a decision will be made as to whether you will be taken by ambulance to a hospital or by helicopter (depending on where you are located).

I'm sorry you had a horrible experience with your child but don't talk out of your arse about "European countries" and "free" healthcare.

CatGuardian · 29/09/2024 16:23

Agree OP, it's shocking and we all deserve an NHS that works. I don't know what the answer is but you're not wrong.

NewName24 · 29/09/2024 17:27

whatsgoingon2024 · 29/09/2024 07:14

@NewName24 peopel have a tendency not to listen to frontline staff. I quit A&E because in part the workload and expectation is too much. Wards have slowly been closed down leaving less space for people in A&E. Social care is poor which leaves them on wards, this means in turn no beds for A&E. So A&E becomes a ward instead of emergency department. Those who meed cubicles then lie in them for potentially days. So where do the ambulances go? There are still people walking in the door also needing cubicle. Either the ambulance is kept until there is space or they wait until they can’t and leave the A&E looking after more patients than can be safe to. They need more staff, more room and better social care and the public needs to look at the way they use the services. Not eveyone needs A&E or their GP, i was amazed by how many would go to A&E and have done nothing for themselves. It’s also become a just in case service as well. Its not surprise its buckling.

I know, which is why I suggested it as a change.

Different areas of the country, and different hospitals already have different systems in place...... things like walk in centres and or GPs next to A&E .... things like minor injuries depts..... why not find out how they help / why or which parts don't work so well...... people talking about discharge and getting meds for discharge, can we not talk to the pharmacists and whosever job it is to discharge, whilst including people from social care, to find the "easy fixes" which people who are working the jobs day to day can often see, that people many layers of management further up who haven't worked the jobs, don't have a clue about.
I 100% know there needs to be a seismic political / culture change to the way we care for the most vulnerable in society - mental health support being a huge part of this - but I can't help thinking the people who do the jobs every day, will all be able to come up with some suggestions that cost relatively little, that would make big changes.

dreamingofsun · 29/09/2024 18:06

Im no medic, but a couple of suggestions would be making a load of managers redundant and using the money for front line staff (its not just wages its the high level of sickness benefit they can get and pensions). And stop feeding outpatients....yes i know this wont save much but why feed outpatients free lunch like my ILs used to get?

OrlandointheWilderness · 29/09/2024 18:33

It isn't okay at all, it's bloody awful. I'm a student nurse with friends in the ambulance service and everyone agrees it's not good enough.
Although my GD had a heart attack last week. Ambulance was with him in half an hour and he was immediately blue lighted and on the cardiac ward in under an hour. He had excellent care all the time in hospital.

Just illustrates though - it's inconsistent!

Prescottdanni123 · 29/09/2024 19:34

@XjustagirlX

So according to you, all people with broken bones should make their own way to hospital. And wait for hours in A&E? That will be fine for the fractures and straightforward breaks but if you have a broken bone or dislocation so severe you could lose the limb if not treated quickly, you can't afford to wait that long.
Or if the bone is poking through the skin? Would you want to move someone in that condition? Would you be able to move someone in that much pain and move them safely?

If you get an ambulance, paramedics can reset it at the scene and save the limb.

Copenhagener · 29/09/2024 21:30

iwfja · 29/09/2024 16:19

Which European countries are you talking about?
I'm in Austria. Healthcare is not "free". You have to be paying in via work/unemployment benefit contributions etc. If you are not paying in in some way, you are not entitled to "free" healthcare. You have a chip card which is put into a reader when you go to the doctor and if it says you aren't insured you won't receive treatment. If it's life and death they would treat you but it's possible you could end up getting charged for it afterwards.
Some of the Krankenkasse (the state health insurance companies) have an excess you have to pay yourself. I have to pay 20% of the cost of all treatments. Hospital treatment and operations are free at the point of use but you have to pay a daily charge of between 15 and 30 Euros for everyday in hospital.
It is not "free" like you seem to think.

As for the ambulance service... in most places it is run by volunteers from the Red Cross. They are not paramedics. They are very well trained and do a fantastic job. They usually get to people pretty quickly but you don't receive the same level of care you would from a fully trained paramedic. A local emergency doctor should show up pretty quickly and then a decision will be made as to whether you will be taken by ambulance to a hospital or by helicopter (depending on where you are located).

I'm sorry you had a horrible experience with your child but don't talk out of your arse about "European countries" and "free" healthcare.

As an example, I live in Denmark and it is free at the point of use (as long as you have a healthcard, which anyone can get if they’re here legally).

So; it’s true for some countries in Europe, including the other Scandinavian nations.

The major difference: we pay more in taxes here (I pay 44% income tax even at the lower rate) which I’m more than happy to pay for a well-functioning health service. My work also offers private healthcare for the equivalent of £7 a month, which has been great when there’s a waitlist and I want to see a specialist within the week. Whether people would be happy with a similar system in the U.K., I don’t know.

I don’t think there are many truly out-of-pocket models here in Europe.

MessyNeate · 29/09/2024 21:38

Last year I held a man's knee together on a busy roundabout in the middle of the road for 5 hours. After he'd been hit by a van. It got so bad they senf the fire brigade to see if they could transport him to hospital but they couldn't do it safely so they sent a doctor to the scene and told me off for telling 999 I was a nurse. Because they assumed a trained medic was on the scene it wasn't urgent. In my nursing role I take care of sick prem babies. I was out of my depth with an injured man!

PugInTheHouse · 29/09/2024 21:48

I find the OP a bit confusing, if the back injury was serious surely you wouldn't chance moving her and would have just waited? If they advised not to move her why would you do that?

But in an ideal world it is totally unacceptable that you have to wait so long, if they deemed it necessary then I think even an hour is too long.

My DS spent 2.5 hrs with a dislocated knee on the playground floor, we couldn't move him as his knee didn't go back in so he would have had to be stretched out in the car. He was in excruciating pain but obviously it wasn't life or death, however my friend came to sit with him (a nurse at the a&e hospital) after almost 2.5 hrs she called the hospital back and spoke to someone, 5 mins later an ambulance arrived. We have been told that due to the amount of time his kneecap was out that he now needs surgery due to the amount of damage. They could have sent a paramedic car and put his knee back in and we could have got him to hospital in the car. So frustrating, but we know whilst they said he was a high priority he wasn't going to die. His kneecap has dislocated 3 times since, still waiting for surgery. Last time was just before his GCSEs so it has had significant impact.

My friends brother waited 4 hrs for ambulance after having a heart attack, that is terrifying.

Recently the same DS had bells palsy, we called 111 and they called an ambulance as they have to be careful in case it was a stroke. It was here in minutes.