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Ambulance service: this needs to end

153 replies

Nichebitch · 28/09/2024 23:48

Hear me out. My dd6 had an accident at the playground and badly hurt her back - she couldn’t move, couldn’t stand, had difficulty breathing and was in a lot of pain. At some point lips turning blue so we called 911.
And I really get it - they told me that as she could still draw a breath and was not bleeding, we would have to wait, they didn’t think it was a life or death situation. BUT - how is it tolerable to leave an agonising and not able to move small child with breathing difficulties waiting, with orders of not to move her, for over 1 hour. The ambulance never came, she seemed to be able to wiggle herself a bit so we decided to take a cab to the hospital - seen in under 20m. She’s recovering now.
not criticising the ambulance people, that’s not my point. The hospital wasn’t rammed either. But more people need to speak about this because it’s not bloody normal. I don’t know what the solution is nor should I know, it’s not my effing job.

OP posts:
Iamiams · 29/09/2024 08:54

The most important thing you can do when going to A&E is to try and have someone with you. So you are not left alone and can advocate for you if you deteriorate. And try not to get ill from December - January!

OldTinHat · 29/09/2024 08:55

I received a text from my GP surgery on Wednesday. It said the hospital was overwhelmed, not to call an ambulance or go to A&E or the urgent treatment centre, but to call the GP, 111 or go to a pharmacy 🤷‍♀️

Crunchymum · 29/09/2024 09:04

I think we all knew the OP meant 999.

I've called an ambulance before for DC1 (febrile convulsion / temperature induced hallucination) and there was no answer. Just a recorded message saying they were incredibly busy and would call me back *

Thank fuck this wasn't the time my mum collapsed and stopped breathing!! Ambulances came within 10 minutes but sadly despite working on my mum for an hour they couldn't revive her. Not sure whay we'd have done if there had been "no answer" that day!!!

* the ambulance service did call me back about 10 / 15 minutes later and by then I was in a taxi. But there was absolutely no way of knowing what my emergency was? Guess if it was life and death I could have called back and told the handler? I literally called 999, they asked what service I needed and they transferred me and I got the recorded message. This was long before Covid and in March time (so still "winter protocol" I guess)

Hope your DD is okay OP?

Dibbydoos · 29/09/2024 09:04

Wtf has happened to tge ambulance service? What did the tory government do to it? It was fine prior to covid them a shit shower afterwards. Even GP services are only starting to right themselves now!

@Nichebitch it's not acceptable. Even in developing countries they have better emergency services than a G7 country. The UK is a joke, the tories put us here, the fg B's. If I could leave and go live elsewhere, I would. I am done with my own country.

Thekormachameleon · 29/09/2024 09:06

@LBFseBrom
Of course it is an emergency and should have been given priority. The only delay would have been shortage of staff and a back up of emergencies, motorway pile up or similar, but they didn't say that. They seem to come out pretty quickly where I live and the paramedics are first class, they are quicker than the police! From what I have gleaned from the media, the service seems to vary according to the area.

Define emergency. The pt was conscious and breathing, she needed medical help yes but in the scheme of emergencies the ambulance service deals with it, she wasn't a high priority

You state 'the only delay would be shortage of staff or back up if emergencies such as motorway pile up ' but this simply isn't true

The delays are caused by many, complex issues. Delays in handing over patients at hospitals being the main one

DublinBlowIn · 29/09/2024 09:07

I agree, it’s awful and I am sick of people aggressively defending it as if they have been personally insulted

this^

until we can accept as a society that the NHS is dead on its feet, we will continue to have these issues.

whilst the Irish health system isn’t perfect two of my DC have had ambulances from school in Ireland for broken bones, both arriving within 15mins, blue lights, proper pain relief and immediate care.

there are no charges for emergency treatment of this nature.

Prescottdanni123 · 29/09/2024 09:08

I do think that call handlers prioritising skills aren't always the best once they've dealt with the life threatening stuff. I understand that it's probably really tricky though. I once looked after someone on a farm for four hours whose injuries were severe but not immediately life threatening, but was in so much shock. We could see him deteriorating but got absolutely nowhere with the call handlers when we repeatedly rang to say he was getting worse. When they arrived, one of the paramedics cheerily asked if we had been waiting long. She seemed quite surprised that we hadn't been bumped up the list when she took in the injured person's condition.

It was the kind of injury that needs urgent attention as well to not cause lifelong problems. He was left with permanent damage which could have been avoided if the ambulance had got there quicker.

frozendaisy · 29/09/2024 09:15

Who is suggesting to their children to look at becoming a paramedic as a career?

Prescottdanni123 · 29/09/2024 09:16

@Dibbydoos

In my area, GP services are getting increasingly worse. If you are fortunate enough to get an appointment, you end up seeing an exhausted nurse practioner or a clueless physicians associate with a stack of text books. It is a well known fact that most of the GP surgeries in my area are actively contributing to the overrun A&E problem because they just fob people off until they end up seriously ill and needing specialist care.

frozendaisy · 29/09/2024 09:17

Who is suggesting to their children or even themselves to become call handlers?

Everyone criticises but it's for other people or their children to sort out.

dreamingofsun · 29/09/2024 09:21

My MIL has suspected broken hip, which means you arent supposed to move. Ambulance was 12 hours. She was laying on a hard wood floor. Relatives did move her as she needed the toilet and didnt want to lay in wee for 12 hours.

How is this happening in a civilised society. was labour NHS which doesnt bode well

parababe · 29/09/2024 09:22

IDontHateRainbows · 29/09/2024 08:09

I was kind of thinking they could provide enough care to save someone's life eg cardiac arrest or stopped breathing is that not what ambulance personnel can do?

Where to take them is a secondary problem but at least it won't be the morgue.

And this is where the media doesn't help.... The amount of medical dramas I've seen when a patient is having CPR administered and all of a sudden they cough a couple of times and 'wake up'!! This does not happen in real life sadly. There is not much point in administering CPR, or helping someone who's stopped breathing if you are not able to get them to a hospital and treated - I have never come across a patient (apart from the occasional heroin addicts who have been 'narced' - and even then its because they have point blank refused and run off! ) who have not needed immediate secondary care.
Our NHS in its current form is dying/is dead
I have worked in the NHS for the last nearly 30 years (ambulance service) and have seen quite a few 'restructures' which are supposed to reduce the amount of managers (Of which there are way way too many) but all that actually happens is they just are given different job titles, so the 'numbers' say they have got less managers, but they are all still there in their cushy jobs. These people are still paid, in some cases, huge salaries (I am not talking about people who work on the frontline, although many of these 'managers' will tell you they do)
What are they supposed to do with the surplus of managers that they realistically need to get rid of in order to give the 'less managers more frontline staff model? Make them redundant? Put them back on ambulances? I wouldn't want any of them treating me with a couple of paracetamol, let alone anything 'life saving! Most of these managers have been in the NHS for years and years, and haven't set foot on an ambulance in years, that is one big pile of cash to pay in redundancy money. Then you've got the ones that will take the ambo service to court for wrongful dismissal etc. And they'll win, because there is no true management for the managers and therefore their incompetency cannot be 'proved' - They are just allowed to do their own thing and get away with it!! There's another huge pile of money that will need paying out!
I don't know what the answer is - But something needs to be done. Its all well and good saying look who you vote for, but I cant see any party out there who is actually going to DO something about the state of the NHS.
Sad, Sad times

DanielaDressen · 29/09/2024 09:23

IDontHateRainbows · 29/09/2024 08:27

I saw an overturned car on the dual carriageway recently with police and ambulance, road closed off etc.
Surely in RTA situations an ambulance is prioritised? Can't imagine drivers/passengers with terrible injuries waiting hours but who knows in 2024 Broken Britain?

Edited

I know someone who was first on the scene at an RTA with an unconscious person and the ambulance was over an hour so i wouldn’t bet on it. If there’s nothing available then there’s nothing available.

XjustagirlX · 29/09/2024 09:45

LovedFedAndNoonesDead · 29/09/2024 07:46

To the people saying there should be a waiting/holding/triage area where ambulances drop off patients so they can get back on the road and be available for the next person; this is what happened in this situation from a patient’s point of view.

Had a GP appointment as, despite 3+ weeks of treatment from our surgery, I was still clearly unwell - wheezy, unable to talk in sentences due to shortness of breath, coughing; had been told over the previous weeks that it was a viral infection, a chest infection, exacerbation of asthma and all 3 at the same time; I was treated with antibiotics, steroids and increased use of inhalers. GP that saw me on that particular day decided that I needed nebulisers instead of inhalers, needed an X-ray and possibly needed admission to hospital. They called for an ambulance (I said I would drive myself but was told I was clearly too unwell and needed the care a paramedic team could provide for the 1 hour journey to our nearest A&E) and it took almost 4 hours for one to get to the surgery - during that time I was not left alone at any point, either a GP, once of the surgery paramedics or their advanced nurse practitioners was with me all the time monitoring me, giving more medication and making sure I didn’t deteriorate.

Once at A&E, I was one of the “lucky” ones allocated to go to the “ambulatory care area” - instead of waiting in the ambulance in the car park - literally a waiting room that was designed for 45 people but already had approximately 75 people in there all waiting for triage, investigations, care and potentially admission. Some people had been there 12+ hours waiting for scan or blood test results. Many people were on the floor as there were not enough chairs and nowhere else for them to sit; as soon as 1 patient was taken through to another area for an X-ray or blood test, the chair was filled with the nearest person able to get up from the floor - or a relative of someone waiting to be seen. There were many people coming in to A&E under their own steam and being told it would be better to wait until 8am and go to their nearest walk in centre/minor injuries unit as they would be waiting up to 24 hours before they got any treatment if they stayed where they were!!

I was in that area for over 16 hours alternating between a wheelchair, a metal chair bolted to the floor or even the floor itself. Nurses were
doing their best to trriage as many of those people as they could but they simply couldn’t manage the number of people they had to care for, do observations on, administer medications to etc - the nurse who triaged me was glad I had an inhaler and spacer in my bag and told me to simply give myself 10 puffed every 2-3 hours as needed until someone could get to me; I was offered paracetamol but it took 6 hours for anyone to bring them to me! Swabs for flu, RSV and Covid (I had already done a home swab for Covid which was negative), blood tests and initial care all happened in that waiting area apart from going to X-ray and into the next waiting area to be seen by the Dr.

Anyway, I was diagnosed with influenza A and told that really, I needed to be admitted to hospital for care as I was dehydrated and clearly unwell but, as I did not need BiPAP or ITU care, they were discharging me home with instructions “to rest and get well” because they simply did not have any beds to admit me to. I was told to get some dioralyte and more paracetamol and to drink as much as a I could, was given 2 new inhalers and told I could leave.

I had to call a taxi to get home as the only alternative would have been 2 buses that took over 2 hours from the hospital to where we live, plus had been told not to use public transport because of being diagnosed with flu. And then had to retrieve my car from the GP surgery car park before finally arriving home well
over 24 hours after I had left, having had no sleep and little in the way of food or fluids while I was gone. It took me another 5-6 weeks to be back to my usual levels of health.

So, while it’s a grand idea to suggest creating a drop off & triage/holding area for ambulance patients to wait for beds/treatment, it simply becomes yet another overcrowded dumping ground for patients waiting to be seen, diagnosed and treated before being told the hospital simply has nowhere to put you so off you pop home to recover by yourself!! Plus, it was woefully understaffed with just 3 nurses seen from the moment of arrival to when I was given the discharge meds and the basics such as toilets - 2 between 75 people, you can imagine the state they were in despite a housekeeper going round every 4-6 hours with a cart to empty bins and sweep floors 🤮🤮 and seating were also inadequate for how the area was being used!!

@LovedFedAndNoonesDead this shows how different treatment is given in different areas. I had pretty much the exact same symptoms as you.

however my gp requested an outpatient xray at my hospital. This took a few days for the appointment. I was told to rest up at home but phone back if I got any worse. The xray results were sent straight to my gp and the gp phoned me to discuss.

At the same time as requested the xray I did a sputum sample at my gp. The sample came back in 1 day confirming I had influenza.

so the same results as you but at no point was I told to go to a&e.

it sounds like you had no reason to go to a&e (not your fault obviously just given bad advice) but I think too many people recommend a&e to cover themselves doctors and 111 staff.

XjustagirlX · 29/09/2024 09:55

Too may people phone an ambulance when they don’t need to. OP I actually agree that you should have phoned an ambulance.

I believe his is because people believe they will be seen by a medical person quicker. but this is actually true.

option 1 get yourself to a&e and wait 24 hours on an uncomfortable chair and no sleep
option 2 have a 5 hour wait to see a paramedic but in the comfort of your own home with family around.

999 should just start refusing to send ambulances unless truly required and tell people to make their way to a&e.

XjustagirlX · 29/09/2024 10:00

Pastachocolate · 29/09/2024 08:34

It’s dreadful and there is no way to sugarcoat it. And it is years - I had a dislocated broken ankle years ago and it would be 8+ hrs. Relatives somehow managed to get me to a car instead. I’m sure now it would be a longer wait. Then a few hours in waiting room. Nothing to do with the care of the staff who were great but incredibly busy.

The NHS needs funds but equally important is investment in social care. We don’t have enough care homes so that people who are medically well but cannot go home have somewhere to go. Often older or disabled people.
I am prepared to pay more tax, but I’m not a net contributor to the government due to illnesses I have. I don’t get benefits but would never be able to pay more than I’ve cost.

Edited

Why on earth did you phone an ambulance for a broken ankle? There was no threat to your life. You get a family member or a taxi to drop you off at a&e. This is a huge part of the problem

Nichebitch · 29/09/2024 10:01

Demonhunter · 29/09/2024 00:56

They HAVE to prioritise though and people need to be honest about severity. When my sister collapsed and stopped breathing it was after 2 calls to 999 to say she was badly struggling and barely breathing gasping for air, this had hit 30 min wait On the 3rd call we told them she wasn't breathing at all and it took a further 26 mins instead of the under 8 mins response time to get there because at that time everyone seemed to be ringing for ambulances that most didnt need!

They couldn't save her by that point.

Yes they do need to prioritise because it might prevent people from dying! In front of their children on Christmas Eve.

Edited

I’m really sorry, this is horrible. This shouldn’t have happened, sorry for your lose

OP posts:
Nichebitch · 29/09/2024 10:08

Headinthesand21 · 29/09/2024 02:35

She got into a taxi….

Wtf is wrong with you? She was unable to move her back, barely able to breath, lips turning blue, awful pain. We thought she had broke her back or could be hurt internally by a broken rib. It took one hour for her to be able to wriggle herself on the floor and breathe slightly better, still in horrible pain, and at that point we decided to put her in a cab. She didn’t f*cking get up and stop a black cab herself

OP posts:
Nichebitch · 29/09/2024 10:10

Garlictest · 29/09/2024 07:45

People moaning - quite justifiably - about emergency, health, social care and education services probably moan about taxes, too.

Can't have more unless we pay more.

@Nichebitch, did you cancel the ambulance after deciding to get a cab? Hope DD's on the mend.

We did cancel it.

OP posts:
Nichebitch · 29/09/2024 10:14

@Crunchymum she’s recovering fine, thank you

OP posts:
INeedNewShoes · 29/09/2024 10:35

I agree that emergency care in this country is scary at the moment. Thankfully I've not had the need to call for an ambulance.

OP did the right thing calling 999 as she quite rightly knew that in that moment she shouldn't move her DD.

This is not just an NHS problem though; it is also the British public. You only have to watch a couple of episodes of Ambulance to see someone who actually could have got to hospital and a lot quicker being driven by a neighbour or in a taxi or whatever.

I've known people call an ambulance for a broken wrist.

I've sat in A&E numerous times and seen happy bubbly toddlers who are waiting to be seen because they had a sickness bug. Yes I know kids can go downhill incredibly quickly but if all parents were this quick to go to A&E the queue would be further out the door than it already is in some hospitals. Everyone else who is captive in the A&E waiting room are then exposed to these germs.

My DD has a chronic condition that can become an emergency when it flares. It is truly horrendous having to take her to A&E to access the care she needs knowing that we're going to sit in a waiting room with kids with flu, noro, RSV, Covid etc. Obviously this is an NHS issue too as they should keep these patients separate but they don't have the space or staffing capacity to deal with anything but the absolute necessities.

It's an awful situation all round and I worry for the doctors and nurses working in these environments too. It must be absolutely wretched.

LovedFedAndNoonesDead · 29/09/2024 10:47

XjustagirlX · 29/09/2024 09:45

@LovedFedAndNoonesDead this shows how different treatment is given in different areas. I had pretty much the exact same symptoms as you.

however my gp requested an outpatient xray at my hospital. This took a few days for the appointment. I was told to rest up at home but phone back if I got any worse. The xray results were sent straight to my gp and the gp phoned me to discuss.

At the same time as requested the xray I did a sputum sample at my gp. The sample came back in 1 day confirming I had influenza.

so the same results as you but at no point was I told to go to a&e.

it sounds like you had no reason to go to a&e (not your fault obviously just given bad advice) but I think too many people recommend a&e to cover themselves doctors and 111 staff.

No, I wasn’t given wrong advice to attend A&E; I was given emergency treatment at the GP surgery which didn’t relieve the situation and and it was deemed that I needed to be in hospital hence being sent there by blue light ambulance which was called by the GP; and, after spending best part of 24 hours from when the GP made the decision I needed to be in hospital, was told the only reason they were discharging me was because I didn’t need BiPAP or ITU level treatment and they had no beds available.

LovedFedAndNoonesDead · 29/09/2024 10:54

XjustagirlX · 29/09/2024 10:00

Why on earth did you phone an ambulance for a broken ankle? There was no threat to your life. You get a family member or a taxi to drop you off at a&e. This is a huge part of the problem

Actually, someone with a fractured dislocation of an ankle is at risk of losing part of the limb if blood flow to the foot is compromised and, in that situation, a 999 call for an ambulance is entirely justified. There is a window of opportunity to get adequate pain relief into a patient and relocate the joint before loss of blood flow starts to do real damage to tissue below the dislocation and risk the long term health of the limb; and it will usually be done in the field before transporting the patient to an appropriate centre for ongoing treatment including possible surgery to stabilise the joint.

Longtimemento · 29/09/2024 10:59

dreamingofsun · 29/09/2024 09:21

My MIL has suspected broken hip, which means you arent supposed to move. Ambulance was 12 hours. She was laying on a hard wood floor. Relatives did move her as she needed the toilet and didnt want to lay in wee for 12 hours.

How is this happening in a civilised society. was labour NHS which doesnt bode well

I think this had sadly been reality for a good few years now, it’s incredibly sad and we end up with people dying through heart or cardiovascular complications as a result even thought their initial injury may be easily managed if treated promptly. So sorry you had that experience and that, for people like the op, it leads to the “ only having to wait an hour” situation. There are a lot of situations where I would endeavour to put someone in a car myself if I felt they were having a heart attack or similar.

arethereanyleftatall · 29/09/2024 11:01

I'm actually slightly torn on this one.

Based on what you told the call handler, then absolutely yes there should be an ambulance there immediately.

But. She was, thankfully, absolutely fine, and they actually made the right call presumably prioritising others.

I once had a bad fall playing hockey. I remember laying on the floor in a panic - so My breathing was bad. I was also paralysed in fear as my brain was very slowly processing if I was actually hurt, in a kind of panic as I excruciatingly slowly analysed my body for what actually hurt. I think I was there for a good ten minutes with everyone crowded round me, before I realised, I'm fine, and got up. Very embarrassing.