DH wants to move back to New Zealand

[Mightypen]

Trigger warning: we are OK off financially and I know this rationally so please do not read if moaning middle classes annoy you!

We both spent our formative years in NZ and DH was born there so has more of a pull… We moved over to the UK in our 20s.

DH thinks UK is in a dire economic and demographic position and the middle to well off will end up having to pay to bail us out from already taxed income. The rich have already left or have locked down their assets and protected themselves.

DH points out NZ has no stamp duty, virtually no capital gains tax, no inheritance tax. There is a reason millionaires are flocking there (we are not multi millionaires!). The NHS will be even more pressured as we reach old age and I wouldn’t be surprised if they stopped state pensions for anyone who owns a house worth over a certain amount or has, say, whatever the equivalent of £10k is in a savings account.

All dire predictions and catastrophising on my part has come true in recent years eg Brexit, Trump etc.

We (or our children) upon our demise will be handing over hundreds of thousands to the govt of already taxed income. Like many, the last few years have seen our standard of living drop. We are really lucky not to be anywhere near destitute or homeless. But there is no spare cash for any of the extras that made life fun. I can’t afford to pay more into my pension and I really should… there is no real scope to go beyond treading water.

The things that seemed realistic just a couple of years ago are out of reach now eg moving to our dream property.

I can see his point and agree we will be snookered here in old age. The main upside I can see of NZ is it beautiful, has great people and is further out of reach if we have nuclear war. BUT it’s dull and far away.

We have 2 DCs, a tween and early teen (years 6 and 8). They go to great schools which we are paying enormous sums for (sorry) and are getting the sort of opportunities we could only dream of in our youth. If we went back, we could send them to local schools where they at least have playing fields (we live in a city here). I don’t think private schools there offer the same value.

DH thinks we should cut our losses in the UK, sell up and resettle in NZ. He never used to feel like this and was always realistic about NZ’s strengths and weaknesses and the UK’s but he’s now very down on the UK.

The DC eulogise NZ as they have grown up with no close relatives here so think it must be amazing and they would live in sunshine forever more.

I remember it as boring, expensive with poor housing and a tad pretentious (in the circles I mixed in - prob as it was so small). Jobs and wealth were even more dependent on being connected whereas in the UK, if you have the skills, you can carve out a decent and interesting career.

Travel from NZ is expensive unless you want a trip
to Australia or the Pacific Islands. Asia is a short haul trip
and it’s at least 12 hours away…

I love European culture, food, history, architecture and nature. This continent has so much diversity and it’s just a short flight or even drive away. We would NEVER have access to this in NZ. I envisage my retirement as being filled with jaunts to the south of France in September, truffle gathering in Croatia in the autumn, long walks on Sardinian beaches in June, ambling through Seville during orange blossom season, island hopping in Greece in May, Christmas markets in Austria and Germany, summer trips to the Alps, short breaks to Budapest and Berlin…, revisiting the Hermitage in off season (if there is such a thing and if it is ever safe to go to Russia again).

Then there is the small matter of resettling DC. If we don’t go in the next year, it will be too late (and I doubt we can sell up by then). If we wait until DC have finished school, then we will
live on the other side of the world from them. Even if we move
them now, they will probably drift back to the UK for a few years at the very least in their 20s.

I’ve pointed all this out… what more can I say to convince DH this is a bad idea? Or am I wrong? Is there an alternative place I could propose to him? I don’t think anywhere is utopia. But is there anywhere better than here or NZ?

How on earth does 2.5 million get you 50k a year? Even drawdown at 4% gets you 100k gross-well, well above most people’s income-working or not. With no mortgage. And that doesn’t even involve dipping into capital. Kids grown up. Some people really do live in a bubble.

Ooooo judgy.

Re your trigger warnings etc - I don't think people take issue with you because you're wealthy. Your attitude to taxation is a little questionable though.

Go for a visit with your children. Go for a few weeks, visit family, house hunt, job hunt, get a feel for how life is there now and you might find some clarity either way. Sometimes just being somewhere different can give you perspective.

You mention in your OP that you envisage your retirement travelling around Europe. Have you looked into emigration to Europe? Many places are English speaking, so you'd have time to learn the language.

The other, more far flung options, if you have the ability to meet the entry criteria could be Australia or Canada. Aus will definitely have similar travel restrictions (for you) as NZ, Canada may not be as bad but still a bit more long haul.

Been thinking about this, you'd probably be better off in some tax haven like Dubai, full of other rich people whining about socialists robbing them blind and how by paying a fortune for their child's education they've been disadvantaged. I have no problem with people being rich btw just that attitude

Hi OP, I have never been to NZ so have no dog in this fight from that point of view, but I find your situation interesting.
Your husband seems somewhat consumed with what might happen and money your children might have to pay in tax. I'm no hippy but life is about living now not in the future surely. Inheritance tax may change, there may be a nuclear war, my medical condition which was making my life hell could suddenly be controlled by a newly invented drug. This last one happened to me this year.
Also the UK is not a homogeneous mass it isn't even a country it is a group of nations. Life for example in the centre of Cambridge in a victorian terrace surrounded by medieval and tudor buildings of great beauty is very different to living in a small village in Lincolnshire. Living in a large flat in Edinburgh is very different to living on a new build estate in Essex. And so on.
Basing your own life choices on your husbands niche fears about demographic change and possible taxation payable in 30 years seems somewhat eccentric. I mean that no one can satisfy his worries and living in a country on the far side of the world from where you live now quite happily is not for me a reasonable response to his fears, which are not in themselves completely rational.

I am a duel national and married to a Brit. When I visit NZ, I do get homesick when I return, but for my family and friends (and the food), not the place. Like you, OP, my children are in private schools here, and the experience they are getting could never, ever be replicated in NZ. My husband and I run a business which would not exist back home as the population is not big enough. I remember being really bored in NZ and always dreamt of living in the UK. It's not perfect - I am definitely a lot more cynical after 13 years in this country but I am still in awe that I get to live here. The access to Europe, the intellectual stimulation, the culture, the countryside, the politeness and friendliness of British people and the fact they're all utterly potty about animals. Badgers, foxes, squirrels, bluebell woods, public footpaths, high streets (as opposed to soulless shopping malls), London, Oxford, the Lake District, Scotland, Wales, reasonably priced books, cottages, the acres of history in every square mile...could you give all that up? What's happening over here regarding taxes, etc, could easily happen in NZ - the difference is that there are not the same opportunities for bettering your financial situation as there are in the UK. All my friends and family back home are struggling financially!

Nice try @Grammarnut . DH is not white. He finds the UK quite racist in parts - as can be NZ. No we didn’t vote for Brexit and are very much in favour of free movement especially if someone is a net contributor. Auckland is VERY diverse. One of the many reasons we don’t live outside of London and haven’t considered it is we don’t want somewhere homogenous culturally or ethnically…

Reasonably priced books! That’s it @Bloomsburygirl . I was appalled at the price of books over there. Libraries are great on the other hand and properly resourced but it’s sooooo expensive to own books! And neither NZ or Oz used to have proper Amazon choice either. Intellectual stimulation - you have nailed it. My late DH was super clever and I don’t want to give too much identifying info but we were from a strange place and his job and identity were very niche so he never found anyone really near his level until later years when immigration opened up more. In saying that, my generation of Kiwis are worldly and well travelled.

I must clarify that what DH meant by demographics was a FALLING birth rate and ageing population. None of the major parties want to admit that we need immigrants especially ones with multiple children… So the opposite of what a PP
tried to do which is to paint him as racist. But I admit I did not spell it out clearly. Have been out so did not see all the reactions.

Im very much in the ‘I can’t ever complain about immigration not least because I am one!’ camp.

@bubbleduck84
London has some of the best state schools in the country and outperformed most other areas with exam results.

My worry would be the children would hot foot back here as soon as they could and you are stuck in NZ a long way away from them. This happened to relatives who emigrated and frankly bored on about the wonders of NZ but their children came back here for university and stayed.

Friends of ours moved back to NZ a couple of years ago after living in the UK for 20+ years. They are already looking to move bank here, they are bored and lonely even though they have family there and realise they were looking at life over there with rose-tinted glasses. That least over here you have an established life, your kids are at great school and as you say the cultural and travel opportunities are so be much more varied in the UK.

@JoyousPinkPeer
Aren't you a bundle of joy.
Maybe a NC to NeggieNorah?

Yeah I apologise @BigBlueTeapot for being such a ‘taker’… We were educated by the Kiwi government for both school and uni, came to the UK with £2k each, clawed our way up in a job market with zero contacts or help, bought a small flat and paid it off, eschewing all luxuries so we could tackle an offset mortgage, bought in a ‘rough’ area that went up and did all our own renovations, used the NHS for two births and barely at all for anything else, given the best, healthy years of our lives here and have paid marginal tax rates of 60p in the pound. Educated our children initially in the state sector where I volunteered before taking them private, saving taxpayers £8k per child per year. I am grateful for the opportunities this country gave hard working locals and immigrants - particularly London. But we have given back even more than we have gained financially. And in the last decade every attempt to grow our income etc has been slapped down and penalised. I don’t mind contributing more than my fair share and don’t expect to be thanked for it as I think we all have a responsibility to fund those who don’t have the means to fund themselves. I just don’t want to be part of a small subset that is f*cked every time I try and improve my life.

What’s snide, jealous or bitter about that? Our kids will get their inheritance after IHT has been applied, it’s certainly true that very little of it will have been worked for or previously taxed - just the house would fetch about five times more than we paid for it.

You know what @NewspaperDoll . You raise a fair point. Though I would argue we working bloody hard to pay down our mortgage debt and went without lots of things! In hindsight a stupid financial decision. We could have been better off investing in shares in a much bigger way given their returns. I do agree with your line about kids inheriting in their 60s (though as we are older it is more likely to be late 30s). We have zero family wealth coming to us. Our DC could be damn lucky. But I think DH looks at our successive govts since 2015 and thinks it’s a shit show and he doesn’t want what we have worked for to be squandered by them.

A married couple (to be accurate, the last of them to die) with a home that they're leaving to their children, will leave a million pounds before IHT comes into it. And the tax is only on the amount over a million. So the poor kid/s are hardly going to be hard done by. Their going to have at least a million.

Yes, things could change, but the talk is of the changes being to businesses or farms in the estate. Which doesn't appear to be a problem for OP.

@Mightypen you do know that cities outside London aren’t all “homogeneous culturally and ethically” don’t you? It’s seems bizarre to me that you and your husband are thinking of moving to the other side of the world, but wouldn’t consider another city in the UK!

On average I think they are miles better in NZ. Yes perhaps not high end but high end isn't really typical is it.

Most people eating out are eating a mid price or family style. Pubs etc. in the uk there are so many over priced underwhelming chains like giggling squid, Ben's, Meghan's etc. in Auckland every second eatery has fresh amazing food

Can those mentioning vibrant sunny cities in Europe please post suggestions!

I would LOVE France or Italy but the tax system in France is super complicated and makes us look like the UAE while many people who settle in Italy complain about bureaucracy. Spain too has its problems and I believe Portugal has rescinded its golden visa.

Switzerland has no inheritance tax and an Italian side? But cost of living and healthcare is high, universities are pretty much free.

No. They have done the opposite. The UK has been the beneficiary of being at the receiving end of the brain drain.

The OP and partner came over fully educated and contributed to our economy.