Help me make sense of how I feel? Transgender person in the loo.

[ScottishLottie]

I think of myself as very liberal - very 'live and let live', love is love and people should be absolutely free to be whomever they want to be.

Went into our local city on Fri last week and noticed a higher amount of transgender folk (specifically man to woman), socialising in the area. "Good on them!" I thought. Love living and working in a society where they're able to do this. I was actually interested and looked up why there might have been so many more trans people around and apparently there's some sort of 'First Friday' trans event whereby trans people congregate in trans-friendly bars and restaurants in the area on the first Friday of the month.

Fast forward to the next night and I was in the city again, having taken by 15 yr old DD and her friend to the theatre.

On coming out of the theatre, she needed the loo before we left, so her and the friend went in and I waited outside. As I was waiting, a transgender woman (quite a big, strong, butch-looking person underneath the dress and the makeup) entered the female bathroom and I had a completely visceral reaction. I was horrified that DD and friend were in a space where they might be a bit more vulnerable and they should be absolutely safe in a female-only environment.

Nothing happened of course, but I was surprised and ashamed that I felt the way I did.

What is the reason behind this? Why do I have opinions and feelings that I wasn't aware of? I feel awful but want to understand why I felt this way?

A man can’t “live as a woman”. What even is living as a woman? There are as many ways of living as a woman as there are posters on this board, everyone woman lives in her own way. A woman is anyone with xx chromosomes. Anyone else is in the ‘not woman’ part of the venn diagram.

Pet, you'll have to cope with it until females get their single sex spaces back. It's not going away so the sooner people accept that females need single sex spaces the quicker we can stop discussing it.

One of them has probably made a mistake.

This x 100

Well yes. This response helps to keep women safe.

Men are a potential threat and being aware of this in situations where you can be attacked helps to keep women safe.

If men were not a threat we would not have this response. But they are.

Why feel ashamed fgs?? They’re toilets for female people. Women and girls are allowed their own things. We count too.

We’re also full human beings - not skivvies and tidiers and compromisers!

When I was a child, there were lots of feminine men (New Romantics). Every single one used the Male toilets. If certain males don’t feel welcome in a male toilet, that’s for the men to sort out. The women’s toilets are for women not a general haven for anyone who fancies being there.

Women are entitled to Female toilets for privacy, dignity and safety. Good men stay out so bad men stand out. That means all men, whatever they’re wearing.

If you have already made your mind up, what is there to discuss? All you actually want is to high five each other about having the same viewpoint.

And what do you think the people on this thread are going to do about it? What are we, the toilet police?

There's a reason this topic got confined to one area of MN. These threads go exactly the same way every single time. It's tedious.

Why should it be combined with the disabled loo? We have enough trouble already with non-disabled people using them without Derek spending 20 minutes in there putting his makeup on while someone in a wheelchair or with IBS needs to go.

'What is the reason behind this? Why do I have opinions and feelings that I wasn't aware of? I feel awful but want to understand why I felt this way?'

It's because you're a typical Liberal/Left winger who spouts Lefty views but as soon as it's on your doorstep, you're up in arms.

Why can't they use the mens still? It's more appropriate. Why do men have a problem with males who are wearing a dress or make up using male facilities? Why are men so prejudice to males who have different appearances?

Because just because he's wearing a dress doesn't mean he can't sexually assault you.Its instinct.

What about them? If they are male they use the mens toilets (like they have for decades). It's not that difficult a concept.

I went to a family friendly tourist attraction this weekend and they had gender neutral bathrooms- made a lot of sense in a way, everyone was there with kids.

I had a similar weird awkward feeling walking into a bathroom when a man standing there with their kid washing their hands, and it was nothing to do with being made to feel unsafe by him or anything. I think it was almost a feeling of 'I'm in the wrong loo!' that is almost ingrained that in the back of my head it still felt wrong.

Women’s rights to privacy and safety from all males isn’t tedious.

Males are increasingly emboldened to invade women’s spaces, the fact that some of them are acting out fetishes and are using women as props is increasingly clear so more women are seeing ‘trans rights’ through a different light from before.

If you think so little of women that you think we should shut up about these things then good for you, enjoy your misogyny and scroll past. We’re not going to shut up because you don’t like it.

I'm sorry that a mainstream political issue offends you and you find tedious.

I think we should ban all the posts I find tedious because they get on my nerves. Cos I am the law...

Oh wait, I'm not.

This subject should be talked about widely because it's incredibly important. It's not a niche issue despite the claims it is.

Good to see so many women on here understanding the need to protect girls from random men imposing on women only spaces. And an education to see at least one male promoting the rights of men to intrude in places where girls and women undress.

Men who don't respect the right of women and girls to boundaries raise so many red flags.

You say yourself it’s instinct and it’s a natural feeling.
I don’t think you mean anyone harm, ill will etc etc but it’s just a feeling. You’re trying to suppress what you call is an instinct and berating yourself, but instincts shouldn’t need to be suppressed or berated (unless you cause others harm of course)

Single cubicles should be gender neutral, and they can be arranged around the hand washing facilities which would encourage EVERYONE to wash their hands! Not to stereotype... BTW I wouldn't have a problem with a trans woman in the women's loo, as you are in a cubicle anyway.

Don't question your protective instincts over your daughter. You saw a man entering her single-sex space which is a transgressive act in itself and should immediately trigger a red flag. What's more important - your daughter's safety, privacy and rights over her own spaces or faux-lefty liberal virtue-signalling which puts her in danger? And what lesson do you want her to learn about her status in life?

We all have instinctive thoughts that we may need to overcome with our rational brain to be fair and reasonable to the people around us - its not about whether you have some instincts that don't live up to your ethics, its about your ability to override them by understanding that other people's feelings need to be taken into account as well. I wouldn't blame yourself too much for the instinct - it sounds like you know better. I also definitely would not take it as a sign that your more rational overriding feeling of wanting to be accepting is wrong - the posters here who are convinced the apocalypse is coming if people born as two different genders happen to use the same public toilet should be more like you (i.e. thinking about the impact their instincts would have on other people's emotions if they were implemented).

If you have already made your mind up, what is there to discuss? All you actually want is to high five each other about having the same viewpoint.

You're damn right I have made my mind up. Not a single biological male (excluding young children) should be in spaces that are female only, in sports categories that are intended for female bodies.

And we will continue to discuss it until sense has prevailed.

The OP asked a question. We're just responding. Cope.

No and no.

Unisex spaces put females at risk.

That feeling saying 'This is wrong' was your gut talking. The gut—that thing we're usually told we should follow. The gut isn't as easily convinced that 'kindness' trumps everything else, whereas brains are malleable and easily filled with nonsense. I'd go with your gut.

It makes sense - if you want to safeguard your children - to fear men you don't know. Even men who are experts in the field (e.g. De Becker) acknowledge this. It's just fact.

Almost all violent and sexual crime is by men - not all men, no, but we can't tell who will be the minority who will commit these life destroying crimes by looking. So the simplest safeguarding measure possible - and most successful - for women and girls is to exclude men from spaces where they are vulnerable.

The good men in my experience realise this and don't seek to get undressed around / go to the toilet with women and children unknown to them.

K Dolatowski is a transwoman who attacked a 10 year old girl in a 'women's' toilets.

https://transcrimeuk.com/2019/02/02/katie-dolatowski/

I wonder if she'd have been allowed in that toilet alone by her parents if it had a big sign saying MIXED SEX on it? I doubt it. So the lies of the retailer (Morrison's I think) directly lead to this crime and harm to this girl. They took away the power of making informed decisions about safeguarding from those parents. By lying.

It's the lying as much as anything. In the situation you describe OP you didn't have the choice to make decisions about safeguarding your child because you were lied to about who'd be in those toilets.

Transwomen very much at least have the same pattern of offending as the male population at large. Since some transwomen are motivated by a fetish (AGP), and very open about it, you have to consider that too. I'm totally not ok with my children in a toilet with a male bodied person for whom being in women's spaces and wearing women's clothes is erotic.

Safeguarding children is more important than any man's feelings in my opinion.

Obviously some men don't agree.