is it normal for secondary schools to use fear their induction method for year 7s

[Alevelquestions]

My child started secondary this Wednesday and the school has concentrated on emphasising all the ways they might get detentions. Kids have already been given detentions for not having the right colour pens, for not sitting straight or for forgetting parts of their PE kit. This is within three days of starting. My kid hasn’t had a detention but on Friday he told me he spent the whole day trying not to cry because he thought he’d have detention for forgetting his white board. The school prides itself on discipline but it seems to be at the expense of humanity and remembering these are quite young kids undergoing a major and unsettling transition. Is this the normal approach nowadays? It genuinely makes me so sad.

Like anything, it's about balance, isn't it?

There is clearly a lot of value in setting high standards and reinforcing these from the start, though not when it gets to the point of scaring children, and potentially making them too scared to happily come to school.

If you are in an area of deprivation, it may be that some of the kids lacked pens because they couldn't afford them. I went into Poundland to do my September start of term shop (shh, don't tell anyone - I give pens etc to kids in my form that don't have them so they don't get into trouble - lots of us do it on the quiet!). The cheapest pens available were branded ones, 12 for £2.50 (I know other Poundlands have cheaper - in the end I went to another one and got 30 for £2, but that was because I could afford the bus fair.)

I think punishing children for their poverty is obscene. I also think all this "walk the corridors in silence" is a war on the working classes, an attempt at reification, and also obscene.

That is my Marxist perspective, for what it's worth!

Anyway, please stress to your son not to cry or be frightened. A detention in this kind of situation is nothing to be too scared about. He will likely get at least one this year - most kids will. It's about 20 minutes of his life, nothing terrible will happen - he will just have to sit there for a bit and copy out some stuff most likely......

Not worth getting too worked up over.

@Twodogsonerabbit I’m glad your son stood up for himself. I’ve only ever begrudgingly mentioned such uniform sanctions to children when being watched and glared at by a member of SLT and would have loved for a kid to speak up like this in front of them! Normally I’d turn a blind eye and keep raising it as a non-issue in staff meetings, but it’s great to hear the valid arguments from the children themselves.

He told them, at 11, what he was willing to do? Oh, goodness, this will come back to bite you on the bum when he’s a stroppy teenager…🙄

@Boomer55 why? He knows his own body and when it is too hot or too cold. Forcing children to wear jumpers on a warm day is ridiculous. They will be uncomfortable, less likely to concentrate and, with all the pubescent hormones jumping around, smelly!

@Twodogsonerabbit

Oh dear.

(And this is from someone who hasn't sent their child to a state secondary because of the damaging behaviour policies.)

You can't be serious that you backed you child up when they told a teacher they thought their rules were shit?!

You're a huge part of the problem.

Like them or not when you join a school rules are rules. Just like society.

We can't not follow the ones we don't like.

I don't like paying for stuff but I sure as hell don't steal.

😂oh, I've had this already - "I know what you're not allowed to do, so you can't make me"😂

There is another thread running about a primary that's punishing kids for talking to kids from another class.

It's No surprise that EBSR is so high my the govt don't want to look at reasons and just assume it's bad or soft parenting or going on a cheeky holiday.

I'm so glad my youngest is now in sixth form. Not
Much longer to go.

How is taking away all autonomy from kids a good thing? How will they cope in the working world when they're used to being told how to enter a room, when they're allowed to speak, what to wear?

On one hand there's the argument that schools need to be strict because parents haven't prepared their children to be responsible and independent at secondary school.

Yet these children are not even allowed to make the decision that it's too warm to wear a jumper?

He was very polite they did let me know when they called but they still class it as answering back. He has ASD and is very factual so to him it was just logical to explain and not make himself hot and sweaty wearing too many layers!

I think we put teenagers through rules, such as not being able to take off a layer of clothes, that as adults we would protest massively about following.

We do it at a time if their life that they already going through, hormones, BO, it seems a bit bizarre. All schools seem the same. I don't know how teachers cope with the smell.

My DS has started secondary. I am really impressed that they have focused on good behaviours for the first few days. This has allowed my DS to relax enough to enjoy the good things about secondary. The variety of lessons such as science in a lab and the variety of food on other. Although l think he will choose cheese paninis fir the next 5 years 😂

My son's school didn't hive detentions until the first full week, but did inform the children that if they didn't have the correct equipment next weeks it would result on detention.

Secondary schools do tend to have arbitrary rules, and it is something that I disagree with, but seeing some of the children at the school, I imagine they have to as these have no respect for authority at all.

I would dispute this.
Perfect uniform and all the right equipment doesn't stop a child being a bully or committing sexual assault on female pupils.

Or, a child from a chaotic or undisciplined home may never have the right equipment and uniform, get so many detentions they are 'immune' to their effect, and still go on to be a bully and commit sexual assault.

I really don't see that being bonkers about uniform and equipment helps the children respect their teachers - quite the opposite in fact.

Especially when you get the ‘how to be ready for reception’ stuff and they say to make sure children can take their jumpers and coats on and off so they can do it when they need to, but then at secondary they get dictated to as to when it’s ok to do that or not ! So we allow 4/5 years olds to decide but not 11 year olds !

But induction is framed like that. We lay out our expectations and explain the why behind them. it’s not somebody whacking a board barking do nots.
Missing equipment/homework - waste of teachers time at the start of the lesson sorting it out (in iPad schools you won’t be able to engage with the lessons as well).
Uniform/shoes - give an inch and many will run a mile and be dripping in Pandora in Nike airforce before you know it. SLANT - lessons will be derailed if everyone is chatting/daydreaming and you’ll take little from the lessons.

I'm would imagine that many schools are trying to get a handle on poor behaviour, bad attitudes and a lack of respect for staff.

You only have to look at how many teachers are leaving the profession to see that there is a huge problem and yes, I believe poor standards of behaviour are a huge factor.

Ok, dishing out detentions on the first day may be a little extreme but perhaps this school have had enough and need to put tough measures in from the get go.

Which is fair enough!

I didn't but my DD who is in Y5 has asked this at open evenings. She's clearly had the fear of God put into her by either TV or her school mates who have older siblings m

This sounds too harsh when kids are nervous with the changes already. My DS was a very nervous child, he'd have been destroyed by this approach.

I don't think that's normal. At my kids secondary school they have a kind of 3 tier warning system before any detentions are handed out. Eg if you're late to class you may get a 'remind'.
Also, there's no detentions for not doing homework which I was surprised about

It is perfectly possible to daydream while SLANTING. It's performative nothing else.

Apart from the ask and answer questions part. We’re good at spotting the performers and in good practice these will be cold called.

If perfect uniform is not enforced, then skirts get shorter; trainers get whiter; the children get scruffier and before you know it, you can either see their underwear or they are all labels. So uniform has to be followed to the letter.

Too hot? Remove the most outer layer once in lesson. There is no reason not to follow the policy.

All elements of uniform should be back on when walking around the building. Parents, this rule is for you too. If pupils have shoved jumpers in bags or are carrying them over arms, they end up lost, put down or dropped somewhere, never to be seen again. Does it really hurt to put that blazer on between lessons and remove it when seated at the desk again? No.

Requiring a particular colour pen? For goodness sake, just use the colour given to you. Blue or black to write; red to correct…the colours are there for a reason and ultimately to ensure the teacher can clearly see the progress YOUR child is making. So it does matter. Most of the time they are provided, placed on the desk in front of your child, so when they ignore the instruction, they damn well deserve to be picked up on it.

Toilets - do you know that the minute I let one child go to the toilet (secondary) it starts a chain of kids going to the toilet. As one comes back, another asks to go. In fact, they ask in advance, put their name down in a queue. Can you imagine how disruptive that is? The maximum time any child has to wait to use the loo if I say no is 2 hours. Why are there so many children unable to hold on 2 hours?! It’s ridiculous. I’m a mid 40’s woman and I generally have to hold on all day due to lessons and meetings. Two hours is nothing between wees. However, you can guarantee that when you enforce this rule, 60% of the parents will send notes in for little Janet, because at least 700 of our kids apparently have self diagnosed water infections. 🙄

Rules are generally thought out by the school to improve the school. They are not arbitrary. And yet parents will moan and complain, phone up and try to make their child the exception all the time. Yet those parents don’t have to work in the building and try to keep over 1000 children safe and meeting their full potential. Parents are one of the biggest problems for children today and make our jobs and their education more difficult.

It winds me up to see so many parents saying ‘I support my little Jonny in being a complete nightmare for his school because I don’t think he should have to follow the same rules as everyone else’. Because however politely you’re saying it, that’s what you’re saying.
Well, good luck in the future with that 👍

How refreshing it is to hear a parent say to their child ‘those are the rules, so that’s what we’ll be following’.

My son left school last year his school wasn't part of an academy Trust
But I I have heard this about local schools that ,are they seem obsessed with the little things ,and the uniform has to be exact or there are repercussions.

He would not have been destroyed.

Destroyed?

They are rules not the hunger games.

Old school discipline like whacking kids with rulers?

My son started secondary school last week. The staff were generally very kind, but they were warned about getting detentions for being late. My son's an anxious soul, and he has been worrying about it since!