is it normal for secondary schools to use fear their induction method for year 7s

[Alevelquestions]

My child started secondary this Wednesday and the school has concentrated on emphasising all the ways they might get detentions. Kids have already been given detentions for not having the right colour pens, for not sitting straight or for forgetting parts of their PE kit. This is within three days of starting. My kid hasn’t had a detention but on Friday he told me he spent the whole day trying not to cry because he thought he’d have detention for forgetting his white board. The school prides itself on discipline but it seems to be at the expense of humanity and remembering these are quite young kids undergoing a major and unsettling transition. Is this the normal approach nowadays? It genuinely makes me so sad.

Some things never change, it seems. My highschool was like this in the 90s and my mother remembered her own mother standing outside the school gates when she dropped her off, cleaning other children's fingernails so they didn't get the cane for being dirty in morning assembly. I really don't agree that severly, disproportionately punishing misdemeanors like getting lost trying to find new classrooms or not being able to tie your tie correctly (and not having a parent who will show you) improves behaviour. Some discipline and the expectation that rules will be followed is necessary (e.g. be polite to each other and teachers, stand when a teacher enters the room), but ruling with fear does not maintain control - it builds resentment, disrespect and rebellion.

Getmeahobnobstat
Best.post.ever.
The head at my secondary spent over 10 hours observing and monitoring children going to the toilets instead of learning.
His conclusion was that many of the visits were by the same children sometimes 2 or 3 times in each lesson. At that point he said no one goes without a medical note and we now require that from a medical professional. If it is some sort of emergency we have senior staff on call, they now arrive and take child.
It's a maximum of 1 hour 50 minutes wait to use our toilets at the correct time. And he monitored this as well at no point was there a queue of more than 2 or 3 people waiting. Which I often experience as a member of staff, at break and lunchtime.

Behaviour is a major issue in many secondaries these days (even more so after Covid). Just take a look at some ofsted reports for inadequate schools and you will be absolutely shocked what is going on in some places- staff being assaulted, students feeling unsafe and no learning taking place in many lessons.

Imo behaviour is the foundation of a successful school. You will not improve teaching or exam results with poor behaviour. It therefore doesn’t surprise me that schools are setting clear expectations from the start.

I disagree.

My year 7 are naturally weary of me as a new teacher and don’t know what to expect. So for the first month or so, I am strict, using that time to build my routine and set my expectations and boundaries.

Then as I circulate during lessons, I start to ask about them, smile at them, make a bit more of a fuss about something they’ve done well. And they enjoy this praise even more coming from someone who is strict, mainly because they have developed a respect for me.

By the spring I have little jokes with them, make them laugh, turn lessons into competitions etc…but, I can control my class. They all know my routine. All know what not to do. All know how to present their work etc.

So a little fear at the start is perfectly fine, won’t hurt them and leads to better long term outcomes.

I have to say it is no surprise that there are so many behaviour issues when parents like @Twodogsonerabbit think simple rules do not apply to their DC.

At the DC’s school any defiance or disrespect like her DS showed would result in suspension followed by a week in internal exclusion and a reintegration meeting with parents.

He needs to follow the rules and wear his blazer and jumper like every other DC.

Brilliant post!!!

When I was a high school teacher I bought pens to give out, had a stash of ties in my drawer and let kids go to the loo if they needed it. I couldn't be doing with all the pointless misery that I would be causing otherwise.

There are always some teachers who let the other teachers do the hard work.

Those teachers who don’t follow the rules because they are nice, and then make it difficult for everyone else.

What would the school be like if everyone couldn’t be bothered with the ‘pointless misery’.

There’s less confusion for the children when everyone sings from the same hymn sheet.

If a rule compromises my autistic child’s comfort and causes a sensory issue that will impact his learning and general wellbeing. I’m proud he was able to speak up for himself as it means he can hopefully manage in school and not end up overwhelmed and unable like so many ND children

Regardless of what people think about strict rules, surely a lunchtime detention is too much for a first organisational issue for a year 7? With lots of rooms and things to remember pencil cases genuinely get left in previous class room. Make a note of all the issues and deal with any repeat offenders.
There needs to be a path to escalation as well as an opportunity to turn things around.
Lecturing on behaviour is pointless. The people who need to listen don't and it makes others anxious.

My son wasn’t even given the option he was pounced on as he walked in the entrance and given the detention !

But what is the point of giving a child a detention for forgetting a pen/losing it/leaving it somewhere on the first instance. What does that achieve other than escalating a situation.

@Twodogsonerabbit

Schools have to have a single rule for all or there would be absolute chaos. The exception at the DC’s school is where there is a genuine need documented by a medical consultant.

In my view you would be far better served making your DS more resilient to things he doesn’t want to do rather than encouraging him to be defiant and rude to teachers. I would be astonished if any decent school would allow that to continue without consequence.

To be frank he is not going to die from wearing a blazer and jumper.

In my school we wouldn’t give a detention for that in the first instance. If a child loses a pen in their first week, then we will replace the pen and explain why they now need to look after it.

However, we will ensure the child takes this seriously as otherwise they will lose the next pen and the next and get into the routine of turning up to a lesson without a pen. One day the teacher will have no pens left.

I can see why some schools might want to speed up the process of pupils looking after their own or the school’s property by putting in place detention measures. And if I were in such a school, I’d just get on board with it and do my job.

But why do we police students in this way making them wear a blazer and a jumper. It was really hot this week. And classrooms get disgusting.
Rules need to have a reason behind them which should be shared with the students.

I wouldn't work in a school like that.

They actually told me how measured and polite he was but they still consider it answering back. I’ve encouraged him to just continue doing what he needs to in order to remain feeling comfortable and able to learn and function.

Why do we do any of it?

Why don’t we trust the kids to wear what they want? Go to the toilet when they like? Bring the equipment they think they need? Finish the work they want to do etc etc

Or perhaps we could have multiple sets of rules, changing slightly between months of the year, seasons, holidays etc Because moving rules are known for their consistency.

@GrammarTeacher

DC need to be in blazer and jumper as they are part of the uniform. It is no different to them refusing to wear trousers or a tie.

Of course when a classroom is exceptionally warm in July, removal should be temporarily permitted. However, it is simply not an issue most of the year given the weather in the U.K.

My husband does, and they have over 90% A* - C pass rate (not England).

The opportunities those children get are incredible.

You've given a list of rules that have reasons behind them.
Being overly strict about jumpers under blazers has no reason. It can have a negative impact on their work (due to being too hot).
I would not choose to work in schools like this.

Other schools have similar (or indeed better) results and opportunities without silent corridors and equipment detentions

Depends where you are and what classroom. Most of ours have been disgustingly hot in the afternoon this week. My year 11s cheered when they found out we were in a computer room on Friday - they have air con!

My dc secondary school started like this in year 7. On the one hand I can understand why they do it. On the other hand, I actually thought it was really damaging. Created a very hostile unhappy atmosphere whereby the kids feel under constant surveillance. I'm not sure that kind of fear is conducive to learning.

It depends on the school. Your school might be OK but some aren't. My son met his ex- head of year at a community event recently and she told him what a terrible school it was. She had left a year previously- she said she wanted to leave earlier but had vulnerable pupils who relied on her.

As an example, when there is bad behaviour and teachers don't know which pupil is responsible, all nearby pupils are taken out of classes, separated, questioned and then put under pressure to own up. This includes lying to them "we know it was you", "everyone else said it was you", "it'll be easier if you own up", and shouting at them until they break.

Less resilient students own up to things they didn't do, and the more confident kids get away with bad behaviour. Pupils own up to things they haven't done, just to get out of the room and stop being shouted at. But then they are told what a let down they are, how many people will be disappointed in them.

And this has led to at least two incidents that I know of where innocent kids can't see any way out, and have threatened to hurt themselves.

One was my son and when I contacted the school and complained they said "we didn't actually think it was him who did X." But they let him own up to it, then told him what a disgrace he was - he was absolutely distraught when I picked him up. That's the point he gave up trying at school.

My younger son - who is more resilient - came home a couple of years later and said exactly the same thing. He couldn't understand why all his friends (according to the school) had blamed him for something he didn't do. So it's a policy, not a one-off.

Yet parents are apparently the problem for complaining? Some schools ARE to blame for poor mental health. And yes complaints were made, Ofsted are aware, it makes no difference.