is it normal for secondary schools to use fear their induction method for year 7s

[Alevelquestions]

My child started secondary this Wednesday and the school has concentrated on emphasising all the ways they might get detentions. Kids have already been given detentions for not having the right colour pens, for not sitting straight or for forgetting parts of their PE kit. This is within three days of starting. My kid hasn’t had a detention but on Friday he told me he spent the whole day trying not to cry because he thought he’d have detention for forgetting his white board. The school prides itself on discipline but it seems to be at the expense of humanity and remembering these are quite young kids undergoing a major and unsettling transition. Is this the normal approach nowadays? It genuinely makes me so sad.

Any chance the talk on discipline is the thing your child has focussed on, as opposed to it was what the school focussed on? Most yr 7 will have a half day where they talk about a whole host of things, enrichment, timetables, lunch, breaks, toilets, discipline and then most just launch into the lessons.

But that’s not that the detention for forgetting your book five times is wrong it’s the sanction for violence that is inadequate (which will normally be home life not the child so pointless).

The current Year 7s were Year 3 in 2020. Our Y6 leavers this year were very mature and ready for secondary school. They did not ‘regress emotionally’. We need to stop telling children they’re emotionally stunted because of something that happened 4+ years ago - it just becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. I teach children who have fled from wars, moved from pillar to post for much of their life to escape persecution, have many family members killed through wars and still love coming to school. Their resilience is amazing!

I think some of it is down to how the year 7 feels. So ds1 was very upset and fearful about getting in trouble. He took every comment from teachers personally and found it very difficult to take things on the chin or let them go. Ds2, same school, was fine with it but he was a totally different character and was able to rationalise it. Ds3, didn't give a toss about detention, so it didn't bother him.
I remember speaking to the deputy head and he basically told me ds1 needed to man up a bit. I was very angry and upset at the time but looking back I see that he was meant kindly.

Sounds awful. I've been a teacher for 30 years and have never worked in a school like that. Don't get me wrong - behaviour is a massive problem in many schools and it needs to be dealt with very firmly. But forgetting a whiteboard once, or not sitting up straight enough, are not bad behaviour. I do not subscribe to the view that hammering kids for trivial things eliminates genuine bad behaviour.

At my school, we don't issue behaviour points to Y7 at all in the first week. We spend the first week making them feel as welcome, secure and comfortable as we can. Making Y7s fearful and insecure from day 1 is a great way to make them hate school.

My school is in an academy trust.

My school has very high behaviour expectations

My school is the best (in reputation and results) in the area.

My school does not act this way towards year 7s!!

The first 2 weeks are caring and supportive with lots of chances to get things right with equipment etc.

Poor behaviour (which they would know what it looks like from being in primary school) is sanctioned from the start.

What is the point in scaring good students?!

Obviously some teachers are just dicks, even in an overall caring school there's always one or 2.

There's nothing wrong with high standards but kids need a chance to learn what they are.

I’m sure it was just as bad if not worse in the 80’s. We had to write in fountain pen, we had to stand when a teacher entered the room, we worked in silence and were threatened with physical violence. Lessons were monotonous- endless dictation. Saturday morning detentions were a thing.

Indeed not they don't teach A Level at their school. But even at A Level outside of English (in all its forms), RS and History the extended writing is surprisingly short. I think the Economics spec we do as a maximum of a 10 mark response - about half a side. A far cry from my 2 questions in 2 1/2 hours.

its not exaggeration. When a detention is giving an email is generated that goes to the parent with a few words explaining. Lots of parents on the WhatsApp group said the reason given for their child was “equipment infarction”.

My DS has ASD and he’s honestly flourishing in a strict school. It means he understands what is expected of him, and it’s predictable. One of his main struggles is when other children are disruptive, but that is usually dealt with quickly.
School accept he may forget or lose things, and in an emergency he can go to the SEND centre and get a pen/ruler etc. I think that’s happened twice in 2 years.
Just wanted to give a more positive view, in case it helps.

This. I couldn't agree more. It's over now, so we move on.

And by year 8 they'll be wondering why they have a year group of anxious children scared to so much as blink or breathe incorrectly.

Detentions are meant to be a consequence for doing something wrong. Back in my day if you didn't do your homework you got a detention to do your homework in. Natural consequence.

What do you do for a child who actually breaks a rule if you punish a tired child for slouching.

Same in my sons school, he came home on his first day in bits because the science teacher had absolutely roared at some kids and sent 2 out but the sit on his table. He's a good kid and has gone there not knowing anybody and was terrified of one of these kids talking to him so he just kept his head down silently crying on fear it's absolutely ridiculous isn't it, didn't help that this lesson was after lunch where he'd got lost and asked year 9s for help who took him the opposite way then laughed and left him so he was late for form. The way some of these teachers have spoken to them is shocking, yes I believe him when he tells me what they've said. Also an academy 6 miles away and not a school that we chose.

My ds has got 2 pencil cases in with everything asked for
Spare tie in bag
2 white boards
spare stuff in blazer pockets
Second planner incase he loses his planner
hes constantly checking and re checking. He suffers with his mental health and is under camhs and im so scared thia obsessing and worrying will set him back

Hope your son finds some strength to know he's a good kid and will be fine just being himself🙂

There's stating rules and there's being cruel isn't there

After the long summer holiday, many children are absolutely feral. We've had a fairly rigid start because otherwise they're running up and down corridors, banging on doors, telling teachers to fuck off, standing on chairs, pushing each other over in the corridor. On a lower level, some of them just chat and mess around every lesson.
Your child has to be safe in school. Clear expectations have to be made.

What about if a child doesn’t deserve a detention? What happens if this child is a child carer and no one knows about it? My dd was given detention when she didn’t deserve it and got away with not having one when she should have. I didn’t complain and just reasoned that sometimes these things happened and balanced out when she should have got one.

Ultimately she couldn’t function at that school in lesson time and was silent during class as in couldn’t ask or answer a question, the only exception being art, where she obviously trusted the teacher and was her usual bubbly self. She has a difficult to manage medical condition and it took a lot of talking with her, emailing the school etc for her to advocate for herself because she was so scared of being singled out. She was fine in the playground so she left at the beginning of year 9 for private school. She was year 7 and 8 in lockdown. Home learning saved her educationally.

School is about creating well rounded kids, who reach their potential. This push button system sounds like something out of Logan’s Run.

Many schools seem obsessed by uniform and equipment rules and yet classes are still spoiled by children demonstrating genuine behaviour issues that don’t seem to get properly resolved. These are what punishments should be reserved for - disruption and violence. Forgetting a red pen is on a different scale entirely but the punishment is the same for both.

My youngest has just started Y11 and I have noticed a difference in strictness for small things over the last ten years or so. Their uniform is also regressing back to pointless clip on ties which my daughter has been moaning about all week as the high collar is uncomfortable after the smarter shirts they had without ties. It’s also another thing for them to lose.

You don't need a diagnosis to look up coping strategies and how to use and teach them at home.

Schools should keep an eye on the kids getting a lot of detentions - including how they react to the detentions. I think schools should be strict but watchful and any punishment should actively include looking at how to cope if you are struggling in this area.

If smartly done, punishment shouldn't just be punishment but an opportunity to support and identify problems - I do think this is where schools are possibly failing and should do more. That's where the mental health aspect is failing not with the strict discipline itself.

The issue is bigger with kids who don't have that home support - but that's not an ADHD issue alone. It's something else. And should be identified and flagged at that. Parents not wanting to take responsibility to parent is different to parents actively neglecting though. A parent who is spending all their time on the phone to school arguing the toss defending little Johnny and not actually working to improve the situation is demonstrating they don't want to take any responsibility. It's a partial school thing but it also has to be a partial home thing. (Which is why it's a world of difference from the completely disinterested parents and should be treated like that). I actually think a fair amount of strict style schooling is about parental management as much pupil management.

FWIW DS's diagnosis from start to finish took from near the start of yr3 and we just got it during the summer before yr5. During that time primary school have been good with him despite a lack of diagnosis and treated him giving the benefit of the doubt. He's now waiting being forwarded on to other support services.

I don't think this one should just be on schools to deal with. A lot of issues are home related so you have to deal with it at home. There's loads of stuff online about this.

Both DH and I have strong indications of also being ADHD. For me it's proved a problem in my adult life and it's been identified as a possibility recently since it's come up with DS and understanding how it presents in girls. I've had burn out issues and other diagnosis. I don't want DS to have the same problems I do and DH doesn't want DS to have the behavioural issues that affected his education and he felt unsupported by his parents about that he did.

My issue is a diagnosis of ADHD seems to be interpreted as a limitation on life which then restricts everything in life. We need to get away from the idea that ADHD means a shrug and a 'oh well they can't be responsible' attitude. That's far from the case. And it's unhelpful in the long run to kids. I know the areas I struggle with as an adult and even having an understanding of ADHD has helped enormously.

This is interesting and actually mine thrive in a very structured environment, where disruptive behaviour isn't tolerated too.

It is purely the losing and forgetting things angle that worries me. I couldn't master that at all in secondary. I just couldn't develop the organisational skills needed and I had very supportive parents. The constant 15 minute detentions became tired very quickly (and also lost any meaningful impact other than making me feel a bit useless). I'm hoping there will be understanding around those skills, like there seems to be at your son's school.

Wow no way, it’s the opposite at my school! They get it very easy for the first half term. If they’re still forgetting things/being late etc after that though it’s a different story

This is the same where we live unfortunately. Only one secondary school as were semi-rural.
What choice do we have? I have heard nothing but bad reports of the local secondary school and it's run exactly how you describe yours.

They need to be tough at the start to make their point, because of the number of kids who are little shits who make their teachers’ and classmates’lives miserable if they think they can get away with it.

They will lighten up over time, and even smile.

At 11, I think your son is a bit old to be crying at the thought of a detention - it’s sitting in a room for a bit, not a birching.

So many schools in the UK appear to be run like prisons. Really horrible.

Completely agree with this. And we wonder why teenage mental health is so bad....

So the teacher isn't supposed to tell off a bunch of kids who have legitimately been an issue because they havent managed their stuff because another kid who didn't do something wrong and wasn't being told off, can't cope with it?

I mean it's not pleasant to witness and it's not a nice environment to be in, but the teacher can't really go 'oh well just remember it next time' because that's not helpful to the situation either. Can they? I'm not sure what you expect the teacher to do instead tbh.

Some kids do need a rocket up their arse for the message to get home.

At my DD's Grammar schools expectations were very clearly set in Y7 (can't recall any detentions but they could get 'red marks' for falling short of behaviour/equipment failings which I think went to detention if they got 5). It was strict but (and a bit of a shock) but gave the DC good, clear boundaries which worked well for mine and created an excellent learning environment with no 'low level' disruption which they liked.

The school also don't allow parents to take in anything forgotten - PE kit forgotten and they had to go to lost property. That focussed their minds!

As they move through the school though the expectation is they take responsibility for their own actions/behaviour/learning and by Y11 they treat the DCs as almost peers. It's been a lovely transition through the years to see.

No, you are right you don't need a diagnosis to look up coping strategies. I don't think I have suggested that! I think you have to accept though that neurodivergency presents differently in different people and I while it's great that you have been able to learn those skills or implement strategies, it isn't the same for everyone.

I haven't gone through life ignoring my struggles and not trying to make life easier for myself by googling strategies, of course I haven't. I have spent many years prior to knowing I was ND trying to work out ways to make my life better and not experiencing frequent burnout and feelings of inadequacy, as I have done since knowing I was ND. I haven't found anything that works. That doesn't mean I haven't googled enough or am not trying hard enough.

I will add my parents were very supportive of me in school and outside school.

Is ADHD a diagnosis that limits life? No, I would say not, but I would argue that like anyone people will have their strengths and weaknesses. Had I understood my own strengths and limitations (which are both linked in ways to my ADHD), I maybe would have gone down a different career path and opted for something less high pressure. That said, I don't think I would experience burnout in the same way I do now had the constant 15 minute detentions for disorganisation not been a thing as I wouldn't have developed such feelings of inadequacy.