is it normal for secondary schools to use fear their induction method for year 7s

[Alevelquestions]

My child started secondary this Wednesday and the school has concentrated on emphasising all the ways they might get detentions. Kids have already been given detentions for not having the right colour pens, for not sitting straight or for forgetting parts of their PE kit. This is within three days of starting. My kid hasn’t had a detention but on Friday he told me he spent the whole day trying not to cry because he thought he’d have detention for forgetting his white board. The school prides itself on discipline but it seems to be at the expense of humanity and remembering these are quite young kids undergoing a major and unsettling transition. Is this the normal approach nowadays? It genuinely makes me so sad.

Hahahahaha

They have an app on their phones, as do I which records homework. Also Google classroom.

They introduced paper homework diaries which were written in once. I’m not sure why they did it.

So yes, it was nonsense. The kids knew it was nonsense hence forgetting them. School sent an email home reminding parents to get them to take them - but for what?

This is not how we do it at my school.
Y7 go to break & lunch 10 mins earlier, they don't get late points (we have a multi building site that takes some navigating) and are treated more leniently than the rest of the school for the first 2 weeks.

@GrammarTeacher

The English system seems really alien to me

Luckily ours isn't like that but one we narrowly avoided being allocated to us exactly like that. I'm still friends with parents of kids who go and it sounds like we had a very lucky escape

I viewed many schools last year when applying to secondary and the popular local (walking distance from my house) school is like this. I know several children who started and I am really glad we did not choose it. No ice breaking. No focus on settling in. Just barking orders and rules and talk of detentions. Pencil case checks on the school gate. If you have forgotten one item it’s a lunchtime detention - the head told me this when I looked round so it’s not hearsay. If they don’t turn up it’s an after school detention. My child’s lovely friends (all well behaved and academic) are so upset and worried. I’m not sure the less rule focused kids care as much - detentions at primary didn’t stop them misbehaving. But after DC saying there was constant low level disruption in primary I can see why they may use this approach.

My ds is also in year 7 at another school. Rules have been mentioned over and over at my child’s school. Expectations repeated. They seem to be encouraging self discipline, responsibility and pride in themselves. So doing the work neatly. Respect others- let them learn in class, hold the door for the person behind you. Uniform is impecable and ALL staff wear suits. Male staff wear ties. Female skirt or trouser suits. First week focused on ice breaking and getting to know their class mates. Get involved with clubs. You can buy a pen from student services if you forget/lose yours. I’ve told DS if they lose their pen then I expect them to not get a pudding at lunch and to buy a pen from student services. Dc also has to wash all sports kit on a Friday evening as the school suggested getting them to increase their responsibility at home and washing was a suggestion. Dc has settled well, likes every teacher so far and is really excited about Monday. Dc doesn’t enjoy singing (but is really good at it) and has even said if the teacher selects them for the choir they will go and do their best as the music teacher was so nice in class and they want the school to have a good choir.

I sit in the car a few streets away at pick up and have been pleasantly surprised at the behaviour as the kids leave school (all years) it is so good. Chatting and walking. No running in the road. No fights. No shouting. No teachers yelling at the gate either. How they do it I have no idea. I know they encourage all kids to do many clubs. Does this help focus the kids on positive things and build interests and self esteem? Does it help child teacher relationships? Is it the parents? If it’s the parents then as a country does this require discussion? Or is it offensive to suggest parents are at fault and school catchments/intakes do affect results and behaviour?

It shows that barking orders and instilling fear isn’t the only way. My eldest started secondary school 15 years ago. The difference between the top couple of schools in the county and the bottom was stark 15 years ago. The difference between the top few and the others in 2013 is crazy. How has it deteriorated so much in 15 years? It can’t just be funding as the top few are just as good as 15 years ago, one is Church of England and the other takes most kids via lottery (no catchment) with equal amounts from each quartile and is heavily oversubscribed.

I didn’t know that existed but that should definitely be introduced but I know funding is an issue. It used that as an example but also there’s other reasons like people just trying to skip the lesson. I think it should be recorded in their planner if they ask to use the toilet & if the teacher can see it’s rare then it’s allowed.

This reminds me of a boy (13) I taught in the 80s. He regularly forgot his books, didn't do homework etc. I found out from another student that every day this boy was up at 6am to go to his granddad's house to get him up, dressed and breakfasted. School stuff was way down on his list.

A few things on this because I actually think it's important.

First of all, in school this should be known about by teachers and absolutely taken into account HOWEVER ADHD needs management and for kids to build coping strategies around certain weak points. One of those is being scatter brained and constantly losing things. So I don't think ADHD isn't a total excuse here either.

DS has just got a diagnosis and we are working hard on this area because he really struggles with it, before we get to high school. (We would have done so without a diagnosis anyway). Even if he got special treatment at High School he'd still have the same issues going to university, independent living and the world of work so it's not something you can ultimately totally avoid. You have to learn to be at a level so you can deal with it for every day life. I don't think schools should just go 'oh well he's got ADHD so he can just carry on in this way'.

Teaching coping strategies is inline with support.

The flip side to this, is any school which does take a hard line on forgetting stuff should keep an eye on kids who are regularly doing it, precisely because it's a good indicator of possible ADHD or other issues (including stuff going on at home). So any detention time shouldn't just be used as a pure punishment but also time to see if there is something more going on there. Or to use the time wisely to try and teach those coping strategies.

And again this is where parents should be supporting school by working on coping strategies at home.

It's harder for kids with this as an issue but the kids can't just go through life going 'i can't take on that responsibility because ADHD either'. It really limiting to them in terms of their life opportunities and expectations if nothing else.

I agree OP. It’s not on. My son has just started and they are big on stating expectations and consequences, but when my son forgot his maths book in his first week he was told that if he did it again he’d get detention. They are really young, my son is an anxious kid scared of secondary anyway and it would have set his fear and aversion to school to permanent if the school had been too harsh from the start. Not all kids are robust and resilient and having an adjustment week seems sensible to me.

That doesn't sound a very good way of teaching - note-taking helps you digest information and is also a valuable life-skill. How will these pupils later manage domestic admin and working life without being able to pick out the important parts from a sea of information?

Ok - you didn’t say they had an alternative method for recording homework. Regardless- kids have been told they need to take their diary in, the consequence of not doing so has been communicated yet pupils still ‘forget’.
At my school we have both as tech sometimes fails. They will probably phase them out soon but until then , they are on the required equipment list. Perhaps the students could voice their reasons for not wanting to bring their diary to school through school council or organise a petition. We did that years ago so we could wear trousers. A better option surely than selectively ignoring a rule knowing they’ll get a behaviour mark and then complaining about it.

I know this and was disgusted. But the teacher in question is highly respected (and good on loads of things). As it happens their subject at GCSE is short answer and regurgitating the mark scheme through constant quizzing on apps will get you a good mark.
My subject is not like that. In my time as a teacher students' stamina has massively decreased. Because they do extended writing so rarely in the week. This helps no one in the long term.

I would argue that part of the issue is the medium and large issues are the ones that don't have the appropriate punishment (or support) not the other way around.

Is a lunchtime detention a big punishment? Really?

I don't think schools have the means and resources to deal with anything serious. And there aren't the services and support to transfer kids who are doing these things to a more suitable environment where there is that necessary support.

That's part of the problem.

And that's what I'm far more worried about.

I think these schools are being very hardline to try and stop the issues spiralling from yr7 to this and it's something of a defensive practice. I do think it works for a lot of kids. I don't think it works for a small minority. But I don't think those same kinds would cope any better with a more relaxed approach in that setting.

It's the setting that's ultimately the problem not the approach to discipline from the school. These are the kids that need more supervision, better teacher to child ratios and specialist support.

It sounds very militant, almost Dickensian. I believe in rules and respect at school but also good pastoral care, which this one sounds sadly lacking.

I would put up a list of everything that needs to be remembered by the front door and get your ds to tick it off each morning before leaving the house (I used to do this, although their school was nothing like this).

I 100% agree it isn't an excuse but getting support for any ND is very difficult, especially without a diagnosis. Juniors is new to me so secondary is still completely alien and when I read threads like this, it worries me that the support wont be there, especially if a diagnosis is not in place. And what criticism and punishment over support does is lead to life long mental health problems and burnout.

We are currently on a very long waiting list for my daughter for an ASD assessment. She joined it a year ago in year one. We currently think she may have been assessed before secondary but no guarantee given the waiting list. For my son who is a year older, we have just been sent the initial questionnaires and I think it's unlikely he will be assessed before secondary.

Edited as somehow deleted a paragraph:

A big problem is I am neurodivergent as well. I try as hard as I can to be organised but I worry about how I can pass those skills on to him when I am lacking in them myself. I'm not a bad mother, I think I'm pretty good and I probably have a lot of skills that others lack I suppose.

Generally if you treat students well and focus on expectations rather than punishments and reinforce the good they're fine. Any general ranting is pointless. The ones who need to listen don't care and ignore it and the ones who do listen just get more anxious.

The current year 7's just started, went into lock down just before easter of yr2 and didn't go back til sept in many cases. Then they were home again from january of yr3 for a full term.

I'm astounded by all the people saying pick a different school, where do you live that you get a choice? Our area is fully catchment and our sons catchment was oversubscribed so he only got a place very late and was initially allocated miles away. There's only 2 schools within our area I know of that are smaller trusts not delta/astrea etc and one of them is equally strict with worse results, the other can't fit in everyone in its catchment. There is literally no choice for me or anyone else I know.

Yes and it's beyond ridiculous. There was an article a few months ago apparently it's government policy???

Very normal. I’m not saying I agree with the authoritarian approach but it’s definitely the norm in secondary schools. It was much the same when I was in secondary school too, as it is in all of the schools I have worked in.

Yes, I can well imagine. I often hear people at work saying they are out of the habit of writing and find it a strange thing to do, because in this online world they so rarely do it, which may be fine if it's not needed in your chosen line of work, but very limiting if you don't start your working life with this in your armoury of skills.

The subject they can do at GCSE with short answers - surely it wouldn't continue that way at A-Level and certainly not university level - it just seems really short-sighted not to teach the skill of writing, and surprising, as you say this teacher is generally very good!

Well, this is the 64 thousand dollar question, isn't it! But rules that are carefully considered, and targeted at learning (or minimising disruption to learning) are usually effective.

As a teacher, I certainly don't have all the answers. And I don't think you can apply a one size fits all approach to every school (which is what most MAT seem to try and do). Personally I couldn't care less what colour socks the kids wear, for example, but other teachers in other schools tell me that with the kids they teach, it's really important to hold firm on all boundaries.

I've never taught in a school like that myself (I posted above that I currently teach in a lovely independent school, where we distinguish very clearly between deliberate and accidental, and everything we do rests on positive relationships. We're lucky to have excellent support from home to help achieve this.)

But then he started and they went on and on about the rules above all else, and punished kids whose parents had not got them 2 bloody red pens as well as two black and two blue, and he’s a good kid so he was terrified.

So the rules punish the kids at fault and the ones that aren’t, by them being terrified.
Sounds a horrible place to be 5 days a week and I’d think that atmosphere encourages bullying, because there are children nervous and anxious already.

They were in year 2 during the first lockdown and year 3 the second. This is nothing to do with lockdown but too many hours frittered away playing on a games console and not learning life skills, responsibility and age appropriate independence at home. And parents are also on their screen all the time, less exposure to socialising experiences in the family and in their communities

Yep, my school is like this, and as a teacher I can say it works a treat to get the pupils in line from day one, understanding our expectations - we are a stand alone grammar, not part of a wider MAT.

We have "press button" detentions, meaning if I, as teacher get a child falling short of expectations it is simply a matter of hitting a key on the register and they are in detention, I don't have to worry about staffing that, they are run 3 times a week, pupil just ends up in the next one.

We also have a zero communication with parents on complaints around discipline, we will happily help the parents to enable the children to meet our standards, but no one, up to the head, will even reply to a complaint to the effect of "my child didn't deserve.." etc.

The first couple of weeks are a bit of a shock for some year 7s, but after that they settle in to what is a very happy school, with loads of fun extra curricular activity - by being firm and having a line that is clear, we have very little discipline problems.