is it normal for secondary schools to use fear their induction method for year 7s

[Alevelquestions]

My child started secondary this Wednesday and the school has concentrated on emphasising all the ways they might get detentions. Kids have already been given detentions for not having the right colour pens, for not sitting straight or for forgetting parts of their PE kit. This is within three days of starting. My kid hasn’t had a detention but on Friday he told me he spent the whole day trying not to cry because he thought he’d have detention for forgetting his white board. The school prides itself on discipline but it seems to be at the expense of humanity and remembering these are quite young kids undergoing a major and unsettling transition. Is this the normal approach nowadays? It genuinely makes me so sad.

But equally a lot of those same SEN children were not in mainstream education back in the 90s though were they either? And there a lot more places available at behavioural units which have subsequently closed. And there were a lot more kids who were simply kicked out of schools never to return to education who remain in the system today (this may be a good or a bad thing).

This means schools are trying to deal with a greater range of needs with less options for the kids with the most educational needs and behavioural problems in a singular setting. Which doesn't work. Inclusion has brought it's own issues.

I think there's possibly more visibility of kids who get the raw deal within school too. Kids would have been told to just get on with it. Now parents get involved and intervene to a level which wasn't the case in the 1990s.

We've certainly got this rather rose tinted view of what school was like in the 90s too which doesn't reflect the reality of the time.

I really don't think a lot of schools are as strict as they were. Just different in terms of punishment and consequence. DH is younger than me and tells tales of kids being man handled by staff which shock me. I know things happened in my class to enforce discipline which would simply not be allowed today for a variety of reasons. The staff would have been suspended damn bloody quick. I think about classes with certain teachers and how they ruled by fear. Really no different at all. And yes we had punishments for uniform and forgetting stuff. Just not all recorded beaucratically by app.

Our primary school decided to start year 6 like this..my daughter was a mess.
Year 7 has gone fairly smoothly in comparison so I wouldn't say all schools are like this.

Do you have a child in the secondary school? I always thought a "strict" school would be good before my DC went there as they are well-behaved and I didn't want their learning to be disrupted. However, the reality was different to how I had expected. My well-behaved DC became paralysed with fear. It wasn't just disruptive students that were punished, but otherwise well-behaved, hard-working students who were punished for occasional minor organisational or uniform infringements, or forgetting to do a piece of homework once. Yet some children who genuinely were badly behaved in class somehow managed to sneak below the radar. It's an absolute world of difference from the secondary school I attended in the 90s.

I teach primary and we do have consequences for poor behaviour but we also make adjustments for different situations because we know the children. Of course it takes time to get to know the students in Year 7 but I would prefer they gave them a bit of adjustment time and benefit of the doubt rather than going in with a rod of iron for all children. If they're scared off at the start they may well never feel comfortable in school.

Hear hear! Hit the nail on the head here, thank you.

11 year olds are not small children, we really do need to stop treating them like they are. Preparing them better now will result in resilience later.

Make sure they create a check list for everything they need to remember for each day on their timetable. Supervise them doing it for the first week and then let them take some responsibility. Let them make mistakes and suffer the odd punishment, they will then learn what it takes to be independent. If you do everything for them, and blame the school for everything they don't like, then they'll struggle in higher grades and in the workplace.

By age 11 they should be functioning relatively independently, able to do basic chores, pack their own bag/suitcase, cook a basic meal, get themselves ready for the tasks ahead each day with minimal guidance.

Have more belief in your children!

Schools were definitely worse in the nineties in terms of how children were treated. I was at school in the nineties. In my primary they used to make the struggling kids sit in a corner with space helmets on when they got questions wrong. Another teacher showed us a soft porn video in year four. The deputy head was an alcoholic who used to drink in his stationary cupboard. My secondary was one of the top rated in the city. It was strict. All girls and we were slut shamed all the time. The deputy head used to make us walk over the stage in the assembly hall to check the length of our skirts and scream in front of the whole school at us if it was too short. Can you imagine that sort of scrutiny happening now? I’ve worked in schools for years and staff are more scared of the kids than the other way around. I don’t recognise this idea that kids are being ruled by fear AT ALL

Absolutely as PP poster stated Dr Naomi Fisher on Facebook really highlights how schools are damaging our children with these strict rules.
It's no wonder we have a mental health epidemic with young people. So sad, my daughter isn't in mainstream anymore but I'm year 7 she got negative behaviour points because a teacher asked to borrow her pen and forgot to give it back. She was scared to ask and in the next lesson didn't have a pen. Even though she explained she was given negative points. It's a toxic and cruel system in secondary schools in this country and is doing so much damage.

Schools have to have a single rule for all or there would be absolute chaos.

But there are rules and there a rules! And in most UK schools, an excessive number of petty and unnecessary rules.

My DC's secondary school has three school rules:

1. Individual teachers can decide what happens to mobiles during their lesson.
   (In practice this seems to be each teacher has a basket on their desk in which all mobiles are left for the duration of the lesson)

2. No drinking or smoking or drugs on school premises or school trips. Children will be sent home at the cost of the parents.

3. No outdoor shoes in the gym. Only barefoot or indoor trainers allowed.

That's it. There are no other school rules and no detentions.

The responsibility to do well rests on the students and they know it.

Of course, no one in the 1990s went to school in fear and no one had mental health problems - cos even if they did no one would recognise it or admit it because of the stigma of mental health and lack of understanding of it back then.

Now we go on about an epidemic of mental health issue. Again I'm not sure I'm convinced by this arguement either, for that reason.

Is this a non selective state school?

@Etincelle yes

There was a school called Mossbourne in Hackney which had form for this type of draconian behaviour, in the early 2000s.

I had a friend who worked there at the time, the students used to have to line up outside the gates in the mornings, and the teachers would inspect the lines before letting them in.

They would really shout at students for uniform infractions etc, particularly in the first week of September. Scare the shit out of kids and make them cry.

Parents would literally be there complaining but the school prided themselves on this, that they had ‘set expectations’ and all that shit.

The head at the time was Sir Michael Wilshaw, who later became the Chief Inspector at Offsted.

So that’s probably why it’s become so popular for schools to terrorise children this way.

He taught my brother years ago in the school he worked when he received his knighthood (St. Bons) and he was awful. My DB had some learning difficulties and zero provision/empathy given.

These methods might work on some kids, but they can have some serious debilitating effects on others.

My mate didn’t stay long at Mossbourne either, said it was a horrible environment to work in.

@OverReflectiveMum

I would be absolutely astonished if such a laissez-faire approach would work in 99% of state schools. I think it’s worth mentioning the type of behaviour that many schools are having to deal with. This is from just one Ofsted report:

“Too many pupils feel unsafe at this school. Some pupils told us that they have ‘had enough’ of being jostled and hurt in corridors or verbally abused… foul homophobic, racist and sexist language is commonplace.”

”The poor attendance and uncontrolled behaviour of pupils are the biggest barriers to pupils achieving well.”

”Pupils have no … respect for their school. Vandalism, including offensive graffiti, poor behaviour and bad language are rife.”

”Pupils are worried about getting physically hurt or bullied because of the poor behaviour on site.”

”Behaviour around the school site is often dangerous and in lessons is frequently disruptive. As a result, pupils do not feel safe and have their lessons frequently disrupted.”

The above is why schools have to adopt a zero tolerance approach. If parents want their DC to not follow rules and do as they like, schools like this one are available. Otherwise, schools which do better are those with parents who are supportive and understand their DC need to follow rules.

@LaughingPig As far as I know, all of the schools here are like that though. So why is it like that in the UK?

I'm not saying it didn't take me a while to get used to the concept, it did! But it seems to work.

I'm surprised. I think if my dcs' school was that relaxed it would descend into mayhem. It's good the kids are more motivated at your dcs' school.

No those things aren't bad behaviour, which is why in most schools they just get 1 single behaviour point /demerit or similar, which in itself is actually not much of a consequence. However if it gets that they are regularly forgetting small items, they will accumulate quite a lot of negative points which is where parents start complaining that its not fair because 'he only forgot 1 thing!'
Except actually if its happening regularly it suggests the child isnt taking on board the need to be a bit more organised. If they know they are forgetful, they need to maybe have a checklist on their bedroom door, pack their bag the night before.
And actually kids constantly forgetting stuff does become really quite disruptive. Teacher tries to get on with teaching the lesson but every 30 secs is interrupted by someone saying they have forgotten x, y, z.
Executive functioning and organisation are hugely hugely important life skills that will make a big difference when these kids go out into the workplace. Surely its better they learn the lesson aged 13 with a few behaviour points when they forget stuff, than they start having issues in the workplace because they are constantly forgetting their security pass, regularly late with their work etc?

Oh are you not in the UK? I didnt realise. Maybe there is a culture where you are of parents being more supportive of teachers or kids being brought up more respectfully or something?

Or maybe there are other problems in the UK affecting behaviour?

Similar at a school near me.

Line up before school with pencil case raised in hand so you can be seen to have everything then go in.

I guess that's where it stems from.

As a year 7 form tutor, and a teacher of English, I'd say my approach is as follows:

Make expectations very clear.
In class. For example, you're expected to bring x, y, z.
Make sure you are on time to class. If you arrive after the bell, you'll be marked as late.
Uniform and appearance should be correct and smart. Etc. I also make sure each student has a copy of their timetable for class, and where they need to be for registration, assemblies etc.

There's a number of activities we do as a form on the first few days such as a school tour, familiarising themselves with their timetable, explaining when breaks are, when toilets can be accessed etc.

I don't emphasise detentions other than to say if they find themselves less than expected, detentions are there as a way to ensure they don't forget in a hurry.

I push positive rewards (points for being polite, kind, effort, attitude etc).

Any year 7 students I teach for the first time, I also allow them to be a few mins late for the first class as I know what it's like to be quite small and have to fight my way through corridors to a room I've never been to before.

I also give students in my form a piece of paper and ask them to write any comments or questions they may have but are too afraid to ask out loud. I say if they don't have a question, to just leave a nice comment or something they've enjoyed about their day. They then pop the paper in a bag I pass round and then no one feels embarrassed about any questions I read out.

I did, however, have a year 7 student removed from the classroom followed by a 15 minute detention on day 3, as they refused to open their book, write down the date, talked back, refused to stop talking, and was generally being disrespectful throughout the first 10 mins of my lesson. I had to repeatedly stop and speak to them. I gave them three opportunities to make better decisions but they persisted. 🤷🏼‍♂️

No amount of threatening detentions would have prevented that behaviour, it just would have scared the more sensitive kids.

You sound like a good teacher @Getmeahobnobstat and I actually agree with your approach. I don't have any issues with the 'firm but fair' style and enforcing rules that are necessary for learning/safety/respect. I just disagree that instilling fear in those unable to fight back is the right way to go about things (and I don't consider being strict in the way I think you mean is the same as creating fear).

My DD has about 5 ‘negative’ points in the whole year. No detentions or isolations, however the anxiety it creates trying to keep the record is ridiculous! It’s the fear that keeps the anxious children inline.

XelaM
So many schools in the UK appear to be run like prisons. Really horrible.

I guess that's why I'm paying for private education.

I love that you can post this whilst ignoring that if your child messes around to much they will get kicked out.
So they must also follow the rules in private schools.

So they must also follow the rules in private schools.
Depends how much money they have. Lots of rules can be broken when Mummy and Daddy donate enough money for a new dining hall...

It’s no surprise that some schools need to be run like prisons given the severe behaviour and safety issues they will probably have faced using laxer regimes. Again, the quotes below are from just one one Ofsted report on one school.

“Too many pupils feel unsafe at this school. Some pupils told us that they have ‘had enough’ of being jostled and hurt in corridors or verbally abused… foul homophobic, racist and sexist language is commonplace.”

”The poor attendance and uncontrolled behaviour of pupils are the biggest barriers to pupils achieving well.”

”Pupils have no … respect for their school. Vandalism, including offensive graffiti, poor behaviour and bad language are rife.”

”Pupils are worried about getting physically hurt or bullied because of the poor behaviour on site.”

”Behaviour around the school site is often dangerous and in lessons is frequently disruptive. As a result, pupils do not feel safe and have their lessons frequently disrupted.”

Indeed,
But I have taught pupils that have been excluded from private schools, they all come with a huge sense of entitlement and parents that still think that they can do no wrong.