Very difficult work situation - menopause related - advice/experiences needed

[Woofwoofwoofgoesthewolfhound]

I'm one of the senior managers in a small marketing & design agency.

One of the other senior managers recently hired a woman into his team. She's got a strong CV with an excellent record and the specific technical experience we were looking for. She's been in the role for a couple of months and the quality of her work has been exemplary.

But. She is suffering very badly with menopause-related symptoms, specifically rage, which appears uncontrollable. In the short time she has been with us she has already caused huge upset within the team by being rude, critical, argumentative, quick to anger, and basically very disruptive. Her presence has completely unbalanced what was previously a pretty harmonious team, and her manager (my colleague) is struggling to control the situation. A couple of the younger members of the team (one man, one woman) have said privately to him that they are finding the situation extremely upsetting and cannot continue working with her.

I know this could be interpreted as her teammates not liking a capable middle-aged woman who speaks her mind, but honestly that isn't what is going on here - her behaviour has been genuinely awful at times and completely unacceptable in the workplace.

Obviously this has been raised with her directly and she is aware of the problem and clearly very upset about it herself, but says that what she is experiencing feels genuinely uncontrollable. She's seeking help via her GP.

We (the management team) are now facing the difficult decision of what to do about the situation. On the one hand, she is doing great work and we have no reason not to believe her that her behaviour is entirely menopause-related - there are no red flags at all in her CV and she was with her previous employer for a long time and had a good reference. She is actively trying to get help. But on the other hand, we have a duty of care to the rest of the team who are on the receiving end of her rage.

It isn't possible to redesign her role to enable her to work independently of the rest of the team - collaboration is part and parcel of the role. So we have the option of either letting her go now (she is still in her probation period) or expecting the team to suck it up until she is able to find something that helps her.

I'm completely torn on this. As a fellow middle aged woman myself, it feels utterly awful that a woman should lose her livelihood because of the impact of something that is beyond her control. But we have a duty of care to our employees who are understandably feeling bruised and upset by her behaviour.

I'd really appreciate hearing from other people who have been in this situation, either as a manager or as employee (either as the one suffering, or as someone who has been impacted by someone who is).

I would worry at 'uncontrollable rage' with others whilst on probation. It can only get worse.

I am menopausal. I get the rage but somehow I manage to control it at work, though I may get a bit tetchy. In my job, I don't even have the option of walking away but I work with small children. I know I need to keep it under control.

At home, I'm more relaxed, I'm definitely worse and can lose it at times with my family in a way I never would at work.

I think the kinder you are and the more accustomed she gets to the role, the more comfortable she feels, the worse it's going to get - whether it's a menopause problem or not (HRT doesn't always work miracles).

I would extend the probation significantly. She needs some fear to behave. Surely she can understand why you would ask to extend probation. If she doesn't like that, then she can leave and it may do you all a favour.

And just to clarify - when I say aggressive, I don't mean physically aggressive. Sorry, I should have made this clear. I mean highly confrontational, argumentative and very quick to (over)react. Clearly not desirable workplace behaviours, and very unpleasant to be on the receiving end of it, but there is no question of people feeling physically unsafe.

Loads of balanced questions and answers here!
Fwiw - I'm a snr HR practitioner and my menopause was horrendous! However it was still down to me to behave appropriately at work - long walks at lunchtime helped and insisting on HRT from my GP.

Her menopause is an explanation not an excuse! So what is SHE doing to get her symptoms under control? What advice has her GP given her? What else is going on in her life, does she have hormonal teenagers or elderly parents?
Establishing alll this will enable you to understand what she is doing and what reasonable adjustments you need to make. However there is a line that she cannot cross and that is her rage directed at colleagues.
Employees have a right under the H&S at Work act to be 'safe' at work and this includes their emotional and mental safety.

I would suggest a very structured conversation with her that clearly lays out that her behaviour is unacceptable and if it continues you will have to consider implementing a formal process that could lead to her dismissal.

Happy to help if you DM me

Ultimately, being on the receiving end of repeated aggression, confrontation, argumentative behaviour and shouting is a form of bullying that you have to protect the other workers from experiencing.

I'm a menopausal woman in a reasonably high flying career, and I've had someone shout at me twice in my entire career. Both were one offs and both times the person apologised. I wouldn't be able to work somewhere that someone was hostile, aggressive or shouting, and I would take it forward to HR if it happened more than once.

I think the advice from HR professionals therefore is very good- treat this as a pathway to sick leave, lay out the boundaries (no shouting, no confrontation, no aggression ever) and then move to dismissal if within the sick leave or the extended probation the problem isn't solved.

There are lots of conditions that might cause people to be aggressive in the workplace, the menopause, brain injury, strokes, impulse or conduct disorders, personality disorders- but you just have to protect other workers and you can't allow other people's disabilities to be used to bully others through aggression or shouting. Accommodation would be fine- perhaps a room to calm down, or a day off if they are having a bad day, or I would even accept a one off outburst and apology if it was not typical- but you cannot have other staff working in a hostile or aggressive atmosphere as they have a right to work free from bullying.

I have so many friends who have gone through the menopause and many do feel rage and frustration and anxiety, and many who are medicated, but none are shouting frequently at their colleagues in a two month period, because pretty much most people would lose their jobs (unless they were the boss of course).

No one is confused and thinks it’s physical op.

Op, it has gone on too long, what’s going on in there that this wasn’t spotted and managed the first time? It’s been two months. Is no one managing ?

You do need to start documenting everything and if a complaint has been made enter into a formal investigation as this will also protect you from your employees who feel that they are being bullied at work.

This will also allow you to explore support to the menopausal employee whilst making it clear that this behaviour is unacceptable. Further, you should extend probation whilst this is being explored as to pass probation will make it much more difficult should you ultimately need to dismiss.

You should also consider who these rages are directed at, is it only peers/junior members of staff, if so document and raise at the formal meeting as that may indicate that these rages aren’t as uncontrollable as first perceived.

Also follow up the findings from the investigation in writing. Document everything, including the email complaints.

I'm a menopausal woman in a reasonably high flying career, and I've had someone shout at me twice in my entire career. Both were one offs and both times the person apologised.

That's an interesting point. How does she behave to the employees she 'over reacted' with later on or the next day? Does she apologise, explain and reassure them that the problem is with her not them? Or does she gloss over it and pretend nothing happened? How is her rapport with them when things are going well or is that already damaged and everyone avoids her?

No employee wants to be treading on eggshells at work for fear of upsetting someone. It creates a toxic environment and your best people will decide to leave.

People may have been slow to escalate but now they have and they need to know that something has been done this week.

I think it would be fair to expect her to manage this rage a little better. If it is presenting as being unable to communicate without shouting at other staff then she needs to have a plan such as only communicate via email. If it's using abusive language or personal insults then this is not acceptable and should be subject to the usual disciplinary procedures.

She might not be able to stop her rage but she is clearly aware of it and could have a reasonable adjustment such as being allowed to walk away wityout explaining to take take time to cool off....like kids in a classroom having a time out card. Or having an additonal break or something. If she just wants a free pass to be a dick because of the menopause then thats not ok.

As an example of how my own experience of verbal abuse at work was dealt with:

I was new to an organization working in a finance role where I had had little handover. I was reporting numbers for a new division that has just been set up from elements of several other divisions and processes did not exist. I was working long hours to get things done but the numbers were inevitably missing some components. Someone (with a bit of a reputation for being difficult) called me up to discuss at 7pm. I was so tired and he was so angry that after the call I started crying at my desk.

I didn't discuss it with my manager but the next day a colleague told the MD of the division what he has seen. The MD asked me to go over it with him and then went to see the person who had shouted at him and told him it was unacceptable. The MD then fed back to me and asked me if I wanted to take it further with a formal complaint which I declined. The person who shouted called me to apologise and offer his excuses which included 'I'm Latino and I don't mean anything by my expressiveness'.

The key thing is I felt supported by both my colleague and by management. I continued to work with the Latino for a couple of years as I knew I could put the phone down / leave the room if it got too much again and that I would get support. I don't know what I would have done if my colleague hadn't spoken to the MD on my behalf. But I doubt I would have stayed.

OP, you're a small company that doesn't even have a HR department. You'll be in for a world of trouble keeping her - you're lucky she's still under probation. Hire a specialist HR firm that advises on a case by case basis (there are loads), and get rid.

Management of staff with sick leave/disability has to be done carefully -i.e. in line with company policy and employment law. There needs to be involvement from occupational health, performance management, reviews etc.

A lot of managers are too lazy to do all the paperwork involved in termination for capability reasons. So , in large companies they just push the person around.

You cannot do this for several reasons :
a) You're a small company - I presume you can't afford to pay deadweight?
b) You don't have the HR support to manage this process
c) What she's done to other staff could constitute bullying and harassment inviting tribunal claims from them
d) Under these grounds you cannot possibly say that she's passed probation as her work appears to have been badly affected.
e) related to point a) as a small company you'll be in the shitter if the rest of your team quits/goes off sick because of this one person.

How can you possibly know there’s no question of people feeling physically unsafe? If someone was “highly confrontational” often to me I would be very concerned their out of control behaviour could escalate to physical violence.

I don’t think anyone thinks she’s being physically aggressive, and to be frank if she had I would expect you to phone the police and I’d be refusing to return to work until you could assure me the perpetrator would no longer be in the workplace. Verbal aggression is still not acceptable and employees have a right to feel safe from verbal aggression at work.

Nobody should have to tolerate anyone else’s rage at work (or anywhere else tbf) but I have so much respect for the fair way you’re handling this OP.

I have been through sort of similar if it helps. I started my job a couple of years ago. Fairly anxious sort of person but manageable. Then 18 months ago I genuinely felt like I was losing any or all executive function, mental stability and happiness. Even my usually oblivious DH told me I needed to go to the doctor.

My issue was big feelings / reactions, very emotional, self esteem in tatters. I had blinding flashes of rage and lost my temper with my DC and couldn’t process any stress or setbacks. I would then feel so guilty at how difficult I was I thought everyone else would be better off if I was dead. I’ve never felt anywhere close to that.

I had to wait nearly a year for a gynae consultant referral but finally got HRT. It took me another 6 months to pluck up the courage to take it (no idea why but was scared). And I couldn’t be more grateful for the impact it’s had.

My manager has held my hand professionally the whole time - allowing me to talk, asking if it was worth going to my GP and continually checking in. Kindly, supportively but also making it clear my emotions were creating negative energy around me and they wanted to help me.

I would strongly support the suggestions above of some time off, GP support and regular well-being meetings. I’d also be encouraging them to regularly get feedback from the wider team to check how things are landing with them and help her adjust and stay close to the impact she’s having.

Where is the situation right now OP?

You have been told of her behaviour and discussed with people what has been happening to get 'an accurate picture. You describe some of her behaviour as 'genuinely awful'.

Does she have another GP appointment? Any sign of medication on the near horizon which might change her behaviour? Is she afraid of what the company might do or did she just say 'but it's menopause' and you were sympathetic?

As a previous poster said she needs to have what is needed to continue in employment beyond probation clearly set out to her so that she can either figure out how to comply, leave of her own accord or have been given adequate warning when you say why she has failed probation and will be dismissed.

I think the key question for you as her manager is what responsibility is she taking for her own health? Is she seeking proper advice and possibly HRT ( very effective by the way) to adddress her heath and the impact on work - if so I think it needs to form part of a support plan and reviewed. I also think however that your employee needs clear boundaries from you about what is unacceptable professional behaviour and work place expections. This will all be considered at the end of the probation period and she will be confirmed in post or an extension is required x

I’m sorry you went through that, but there is no way I’d go through that as a small business pwner for someone who had worked for me for a few weeks, and who didn’t declare their issues, took the job under false pretences and then proceeded to abide by staff. As there is no way this suddenly started when she got the job. She knew this job required collaboration. She knew it was a small business, and it’s odds on she left her last role due to this. Amd it’s not going to resolve any time soon.

im sorry , but for me, I’d fail her on probation and move on.

@Woofwoofwoofgoesthewolfhound did you get any personal references on her before she started
I am menopausal and don't have anger at work colleagues

And I totally get that @Sunshineandtequila

Luckily it was a larger company and I’d been in role longer than this example… and my manager had every reason to know I was struggling. Mostly my colleagues were concerned for me - I wasn’t getting angry at work and they weren’t harmed like in OP’s situation. Otherwise I’d have probably had a slightly different experience.

Very grateful seeing the responses here that I got medical help and had that support. I’m not one to be a drain on any employer and have had one day off sick in two years but I had help when I needed it most. We all spend way too much of our lives at work for a business not to care a bit more than this.

So we have the option of either letting her go now (she is still in her probation period) or expecting the team to suck it up until she is able to find something that helps her.

the second one isn’t an option op. You know deep down it’s not. Or you shouldn’t be in your position. You can’t ask employees to agree to be abused. I’d guarantee you don’t pay anyone anywhere near enough, even if there was a price, to be abused. So it’s not an option.

the other option is of course this is who she is. And that’s why she’s landed wit you, just using meno as an excuse, and the reason I say that as is if this was meno,I’d expect medical reports and and explanation of what’s being done, not I’m seeking help.

I’d bet good money you employed a woman with issues that’s nothing to do with meno. Amd she’s not good at her job, as collab is part of it. And she’s failing.

I agree with looking at temporary signed off sick whilst she gets help from her GP.

This is an issue that's, I think, being ignored, with the current disability benefits bashing climate. Not menopause specifically, but simply that lots of people might want to work but aren't capable or will only be able to work once seen by appropriate specialists.

The benefits system needs to recognise this, especially as NHS waiting times are sometimes so long. I can imagine, having seen news items about "toughening up" disability benefits eligibility, menopause probably wouldn't easily pass one of the assessments. This is a problem because whilst many women manage menopause well enough to be fit to work, clearly as is the case with your colleague OP, some struggle more and at least until accessing treatment aren't fit to work.

With menopause specifically, the NHS can be too slow and many GPs still aren't sufficiently trained in understanding it and that causes delays to getting effective treatment. It doesn't help that, like periods, everyone's affected differently. I don't tend to get period pains or terrible PMT but several friends suffer very badly with one or both. And my mum had an easy menopause but some of her friends really struggled with it.

The responses are very heavily skewed by the OP being about a small business and the impact to others. As you've already acknowledged, you didn't harm anybody and worked for a larger firm. It seems like, at worst, your issues prevented you from performing.

Business shouldn't care for one person at the expense of their employees and in this case the very existence of their business itself.

I work for a large firm now, we have HR etc to support .I'd do what your manager did. Part of a 15 person startup? Absolutely not.

other option is of course this is who she is. And that’s why she’s landed wit you, just using meno as an excuse, and the reason I say that as is if this was meno,I’d expect medical reports and and explanation of what’s being done, not I’m seeking help.

It could be the case it's not the menopause and it's just her having an anger management issue (although arguably that's also something she needs medical help with). However just like many of us manage ok enough to get by with our periods, some people are very badly physically and/or mentally affected by them.

One of my managers at a previous job had really bad periods. Not anger issues but physical symptoms like fainting. She even fell down the stairs once. It took her several years to get taken seriously by her GP and in the the end only because her husband came with her. Until then she didn't have medical reports to prove it.

Menopause is similar, in that some, maybe many, women manage ok enough to be fit for work but others have more debilitating symptoms. Many GPs still lack training and understanding of menopause and then if someone needs more specialist help than a GP there's sometimes long waits.

I agree it's not an ok working situation for OP's colleagues though. They shouldn't have to deal with the verbal rages. If I was the manager I'd see if it was possible to have her temporarily signed off sick and get confirmation she was seeking help from her GP. I don't know the answer if she needs a referral to a specialist because that could be a longish wait.

This is why, as I said previously, the disability benefits system, needs to support people unable to work, including people temporarily unable to work due to waiting for treatment. The current sentiment of pushing as many as possible to be declared "fit for work" when clearly they're not, is bad for both the individual and for businesses, managers, and colleagues.

I agree that you need to think about your duty of care to your other colleagues. If I was working in a team where this was happening I’d be going off sick with stress and ultimately looking to leave and then sue the company for constructive dismissal by allowing me to be bullied.

This sounds like the best course of action.

@Woofwoofwoofgoesthewolfhound

But we have no idea if she has always been a difficult person.

I think you should contact her previous employer. They aren't allowed by law to mention anything negative. I can't see that this is completely out of the blue.