Really worried about the possibility of “pay per mile”

[Yorkiepud2614]

I’ve been seeing more and more about this new proposal “pay per mile” that would replace car duty (I think). Which the average household bill somewhere around £450 - £600. Lots of reports that it may come in this October.
Living in the Highlands this would completely cripple us. Do people really think the new government will bring this change in?

15 mile round trip for a pint of milk.
To reach Tesco - 218 mile round trip.
To reach Asda, Morrisons and Aldi - 244 mile round trip.
To reach Sainsbury's - 268 mile round trip.
To get to any of these "big 5" supermarkets on public transport would require at least 3 buses and an overnight stay. To get a pint of milk using public transport would take a minimum of 6 hours due to local service being abysmal.
School transport doesn't start until primary 1 here so my youngest wouldn't be able to attend nursery as it's more than 3 miles away and the road doesn't have pavement.
It's very easy to complain about car use when you don't live rurally. And I say that as someone who didn't learn to drive until I was 28 as up until then I lived centrally in an area that was served reasonably well by public transport.
They can't start penalising car use until car use isn't absolutely essential.

I can no longer drive, but this would be worrying me too.
My car tax was £35 per year. I used to just drive miles up and down motorways with music blaring as a way to self regulate and deal with my MH/ND issues.
I know that if a pay per mile thing was brought in, it would not stop me... would just plunge me into debt.

you could go for a long walk with headphones in instead?

As a woman, at maybe 3am.... in my town. No thanks.

And there would be discounted/free rates for disabilities.

The problem with this is that disability is always seen by the authorities (and an awful lot of young, healthy, able-bodied people) as a binary: you are either a blue badge holder or otherwise you are fully able-bodied.

The many, many people with challenging mobility problems and other health concerns - a great deal of them that come with the territory of just getting old - that don't quite qualify them for a blue badge are brushed aside as though they simply don't exist. We're ripe for being 'taxed' for having disabilities and told that we're just lazy for 'not bothering' to do what we simply cannot.

It's very similar to the scrapping of winter fuel allowance, with the 'assurance' that the poor pensioners who need it will still get it. So, so many older folk - a lot of whom will be at home all day and/or feel the cold a lot more as happens a lot with ageing bodies - will suffer and struggle because of this; but they don't need to worry, eh, because "those who need it will still get it".

Assume that they record year to year so check when you have your MOT?

I'm amazed at those people on here who believe that gantries can only be single-purpose and not be adapted/exploited to double up for other tasks that are not all that different in their technical and infrastructure requirements.

I wonder how many people, decades back, would have scoffed at the idea that standard landline phone lines would one day be used for massive scale computer data transfer purposes - insisting that "Erm, no, phone lines are for people talking to each other; not for your crazy futuristic notions!" ?!

Treadmill☝🏻🤩

Lots of people end up driving on the school run as it is being tied in with commuting to work.

For example in my life there simply isn't time to commute to and from work on public transport and then walk to pick DC up from school. It would probably take 1.5 hrs each way. Driving is 25 mins.

Total time 50 mins v 3 hrs.

OK, so do we just literally stop means-testing anything? All the objections you raise here could just as well be raised against all kinds of systems. There is no such thing as a policy that is never going to produce a single difficult edge case. The reality is that if we don’t do something to plug the black hole that is opening up in the Exchequer caused by the disappearance of VED and fuel duty, and don’t do anything to manage demand for road space in cities, we are not going to be able to fund public services, and roads will continue to get more and more clogged and potholed. This will negatively affect everyone, but especially people who rely heavily on public services.

I actually do live in a village that has no shops/pubs/cafés and no buses.

There's a road through it to get from one village to the next, one village, not within walking distance has a few shops, the other village has a post box and that's as exciting as it gets.

How is the One Stop paying more money when it’s a rebadged Tesco selling Tesco products with the food delivered in a big Tesco lorry? Genuinely, I might be wrong as I admit I don’t know how Tesco run their business. But seeing as it’s part of Tesco why would they “sell” their own stock to a big shop for one price and a small shop for another?

Tesco have always had a two tier/three tier pricing system depending on their shop. The small tescos in town sell stuff at a higher cost than a big Tesco but I guess rent per square foot might be more. Or big tescos might be owned not rented.

Anyway regardless of the reason for the price difference the point is that there is a price difference and that’s why people don’t do big shops in small village shops. So when people say “use it or lose it” it’s not that simple. People who are struggling in a cost of living crisis are only going to use more expensive shops when they’ve run out of something and are desperate for it. Others in the village may be better off and not be as bothered about paying more.

@CormorantStrikesBack

How is the One Stop paying more money when it’s a rebadged Tesco selling Tesco products with the food delivered in a big Tesco lorry? Genuinely, I might be wrong as I admit I don’t know how Tesco run their business. But seeing as it’s part of Tesco why would they “sell” their own stock to a big shop for one price and a small shop for another?

One Stops are independently owned franchises, like Spar shops, Londis, etc. Tesco aren't selling to Tesco, they're selling to Joe Smith and Mary Brown who hold franchises.

Most wholesalers/manufacturers in most industries have different pricing for different customers, due to negotiation of discounts, bulk buying discounts, etc. So there'll almost be different pricing for different customers on every delivery van.

You don't really think that Cadbury sell their flake bar to every shop at exactly the same price, do you?

Or link it to the mileage estimate on your car insurance? That might be easier. So it's in bands.

Anyway regardless of the reason for the price difference the point is that there is a price difference and that’s why people don’t do big shops in small village shops. So when people say “use it or lose it” it’s not that simple. People who are struggling in a cost of living crisis are only going to use more expensive shops when they’ve run out of something and are desperate for it. Others in the village may be better off and not be as bothered about paying more.

Before we were married my husband used to buy everything at the village shop because he reckoned that once he had factored in the fuel cost and time wasted travelling to the nearest supermarket it wasn’t really any more expensive.

I now do the shopping but combine supermarket visits with going in to work or gym so it doesn’t cost anything extra in fuel or time.

As someone who lives in the most rural county in Wales(it is also the largest too) there better be a separate rate for here compared to the cities?. It's 18 miles to the nearest town that has anything other than a Co-op. Travelling distances is essential round here, it's part of life The nearest Hospital is also 18 miles away. One of the reasons it's harder for our county council to balance the books compared to cities is due to the time and money spent travelling to different areas.

This why I find it highly unlikely that a such a crude method such as looking at mileage recorded at MOT tests will used. Much more likely is a system that charges more or less per mile based on the roads you are using and the time of day you are using them. This would also help reduce congestion if it tempted people to stay away from busy roads at peak times. Not just inner cities but roads around schools at start and home times could attract a heavy tariff, for example, with a lower rate charged at other times and for cars registered as being kept at addresses on those roads.

I’ve seen various systems proposed, but a lot of this is about trade offs. Systems which involve charging for different types of roads are more fair and efficient, but also involve more elaborate infrastructure and more “privacy” type concerns. Systems which are more about looking at mileage during MOTs are simpler to do and feel less invasive to people, but also make it harder to fine-tune things (say, charging less for rural roads); in such cases, rural residents will most likely get different rates or free miles or whatever.

Regardless of what exact systems are used, all setups that I have seen involve modifications to make sure rural residents are not left in difficult situations. Some individuals will find they are left a little worse off, others a little better off, in the short term. Long term, we will all benefit, because road-pricing is a prosperity-generating policy, which is why economists are nearly all in favor of it.

I like the idea of free miles for rural people. Simple and manageable.

Ideally you'd have a system targeted at getting people out of their cars for journeys of under a mile or two, which would have enormous benefits in all sorts of ways, but that would be hugely intrusive to manage. LTNs help a bit with that.

How do you enforce/police it? If it was based on the registered address of the car, you'd have people living in cities registering their cars at their granny's address in the countryside. Just like people current use relatives' addresses to get their kids into the catchment areas of good schools. We also already have people registering their cars in "safer" post code areas to get cheaper car insurance.

It has to be simple and easy to enforce/police, which is why having cameras on poles/gantries and effectively make "busy" roads into toll roads is probably the best option. Yes, some people will use false plates, but we'd have to rely on technology and police to catch them.

My cousin lives in a village with no shop, no doctor, no train and no bus service. The nearest village shop is 3 miles away, the nearest town 6. There is no street lighting or pavements between them. Walking to the nearest shop in winter would mean on the carriageway along a twisty country lane with a 60mph speed limit!!

The parish council approached the local bus companies to discuss getting a service again (last bus ran nearly 20 years ago) and they were told the fare would need to be set at £17 per passenger journey as the route would not be subsidised! If pay-per-mile does come in it is communities like this that will be affected the most.

Road charging is a great idea if you live in London or other large town or city, but in rural areas it would be a massive tax on people who do not have an alternative.

But Westminster is in London, so they set policies based on their local experiences. The countryside, to them, is for holidays and day trips.

And it still doesn't come close to matching the cost that you and your car inflict on society.

Well said 👏🏻

Oh fgs 😆

@StarrySkiesAtMidnight it’s all pie in the sky - the change won’t come - BUT just imagine how transformative it would be if there was reasonable public transport from that village…