Wwyd, 17yo verbally abusing younger siblings on a regular basis

[70sPubCarpet]

17yo ds has extremely demand avoidant asd.

He has had years and years of extremely violent meltdowns, which have certainly traumatised his younger siblings.

He has had 3 self harm events which required emergency services assistance.

His father, who we lived with until he was 9, was occasionally violent towards ds and me, and verbally abusive a lot.

We have had a lot of support over the years, he has been offered so many interventions - all of which have failed because he will not engage with them, or he engages for a short time and then disengages and that is it for him.

Ds has been violent towards me and his younger siblings in the past. He is much bigger and stronger than me now.

In the past year or so he has become simultaneously less violent but increasingly verbally abusive. Towards me and his siblings. He regularly calls me and dd bitch, bitch whore and other misogynistic terms.

He calls his brothers retards, cunts, tells them to kill themselves, and other stuff that is just vile.

The siblings are afraid of him because of the previous violence, and frankly so am I. Nothing I can say or do makes any difference and he does not respect me in any way.

I feel like I escaped one dv situation and have ended up in another. I tried so hard, over the years, knowing what he's been through and the mental health and ND struggles he is dealing with, but I've clearly failed and I feel out of options.

He is supposed to start a supported course in September, which I have been hoping will be the making of him.

But we are away on holiday right now, and he's being so unbelievably awful towards his siblings, I just feel like I cannot put them through this any more.

I have said to ds1 tonight that I will not stand for this behaviour any more, and if he will not stop it he can't live at home any more.

I would obviously feel awful if I gave up on him and made him move out. I don't even know where he would/could go.

I don't know how to do the right thing for all of my children, because it seems like their best interests lie in opposite directions.

Any words of advice would be welcome right now.

Have the interventions you sent him on been designed for DV victims with demand avoidant ASD? If so, they will have failed him because they were designed for NT victims and not due to him failing to engage. So, from his perspective he has been let down by everyone in his life- dad for being abusive, you for not being able to escape for over half his life, and all these MH interventions that made it worse instead of better and he is lashing out at his younger siblings as a result.

Would he consider trauma therapy? You have a very angry young man likely suffering from PTSD that hasn’t been properly processed.

Protecting your other children is a priority too, so can you talk with him and instead of saying, don’t be verbally abusive, don’t swear,….can you think of a way he can diffuse the anger he feels when he feels it? The self harming is just anger turned inwards btw, so you kind of need to help him think of an option that isn’t harming himself or you/siblings. Such as - a literal punching bag & boxing gloves in the garage or him doing some other form of vigorous exercise or whatever he can think of that has a calming affect when the anger is overwhelming.

There are no interventions designed to help demand avoidant asd dv victims, so no. But there have been interventions designed for ND kids who have SEMH issues which have not worked out.

We have had a punch bag and he didn't use it. He has tried and given up on so many physical activities. He does go to the gym daily, and perhaps being on holiday and not being able to go is not helping and the particularly awful stuff he's been dealing out this weekend is part of the result. But that's definitely not the whole reason for the vitriol.

He would not consider any sort of therapy unfortunately. He is very very closed, and will not talk to anyone in that way.

I have tried and tried to help him to find ways to deal with his anger that don't involve hurting himself or others and don't involve abusing people verbally. He is completely unable or unwilling to engage with this at all.

I am totally aware that I have failed him in many ways, and now I feel that I'm failing my other children by not admitting defeat, because they have to live with stuff that they really shouldn't have to live with.

It’s great that you have tried these things, although disappointing that nothing seems to have helped him.

Have you talked to him about why you could not get you & him away from his dad sooner? I don’t see the 9yrs of his life being abused as a failure on your part, but his dads. But you have now said you feel you have failed your DS, and your DS may be picking up on that feeling and blaming you because on some level you are blaming yourself?

I agree the holiday is probably making things more stressful. Did he want to go?

Are you getting the siblings support too? Even without a history of trauma, living with a sibling that has ASD can be emotionally draining and challenging due to bluntness to the point of rudeness.

Has he stopped the self harming and violence? Have to recognised these wins as significant progress? Wondering if adding encouragement might help him also tackle the swearing and verbal abuse?

If if you feel defeated, I would not admit it to him. Him living elsewhere is a valid option, but I’d not present it as a punishment given his history of self harm. Does the supported course have any accomodation?

Thank you for responding. I do appreciate you taking the time to send such thoughtful replies.

So, it's very complicated with his father. I tried to speak to him about the abuse when we first left and it seemed to make things worse for him when I did. I didn't want to make things worse so I stopped and started looking for outside help - which also didn't work,
He did speak to a social worker about it once, but that's the only time, to my knowledge, that he has ever acknowledged what happened.
For years now he has seemingly either been in denial or genuinely forgotten.
He refused to see his dad for many years, but within the last few years he started speaking with him in the phone and then visiting very occasionally. I know that this father has been dripping poison in his ears, which he is very good at, and some of the things that ds says de seem to come straight from his dads mouth.
My father used to be a positive male role model for him, but a few years ago when things were really bad he pulled back and refused to see anyone, and since then he hasn't spent really any time with my father. So in that time the only male daily role model he has been exposed to is his toxic father.

I realise that from the outside it will look like I should have prevented this, but things have been through court, and there is a court order for contact. Ds is old enough that he doesn't have to follow it, but equally I cannot prevent him from speaking to and seeing his father if he chooses to do so.

I have recognised the stopping of violence and self harm as a massive step in the right direction. Perhaps I haven't spoken to him directly about it though, because to some extent I have been afraid that with his demand avoidance if I say it's great that you're not hurting us any more, he may then start again. But maybe that is wrong and I should talk to him about it. I will try and see how that goes.

His siblings have had some support and i recognise that they need more. They have the same father but were significantly younger when we left and were not subjected to the same abuse that me and ds1 were.
I am currently actively seeking more support for them.

The supported course doesn't have accommodation and if he moved out it might affect his being able to do the course unless I found him somewhere local to stay. And it would be really crappy if he wasn't able to do this course.

Ds1 may well be picking up on my own self reproach, though I've never said anything openly to him about it. I think more so, though, he is being told, and has been for years, by his father that everything is my fault, that I ruined everyone's lives when I 'broke up the home' and that I'm a mad person and father did nothing wrong.

Police were involved but he has managed to just rubbish everything regardless and ds seems to be entirely under his spell.

Recently there was a new dv incident (verbal abuse - not physical - directed at me) in front of the dc and since then I am being supported by women's aid. But none of their resources can help an older teenage boy.

I do wonder if seeing what he has recently seen has shaken his view that his father has been cultivating and left his feeling confused and angry.

This sounds extremely difficult. One thing that stood out for me is that you are on holiday. Holidays are really difficult for kids with ASD so could be making him worse? I’m sure you are right too about the recent abuse by your ex stirring things up. Do you have social services involvement? It sounds like you could benefit from it. Does DS1 acknowledge in any way the impact his behaviour has on his siblings? Can you agree together sone ground rules or is that not realistic ?

Gosh you deserve a medal.

I would have to drawn the line. He is 17. I’d drop him at the local housing office.

Some thoughts:

Do you have locks on bedroom doors so this his siblings can get away from him if necessary?

I believe that the positive handling courses that teachers/carers do about handling violence and restraint are no longer available to parents but you and his siblings may benefit from beginning self defence training. At the very least it will give more confidence and help you stop any violence.

It can be helpful for some teens in thso type of situation to have a safe space that they can go to. For most this is their bedroom. You can then "encourage" him to go to his bedroom when he is dysregulated.

It may also be worth having and repeating a conversation with him about what to do when he feels violent and or angry. Aka him for ideas or give some and then support him to use them. It will take months or years for this to have an impact on his regulation but if both he, you, and his siblings know the plan it will feel more predictable.

He doesn't care about the impact on his siblings.

Around a year ago I said to him about the violence - no more I cannot have this any more, your siblings should not have to live with this, put him in a final warning that he would have to leave if it happened again. This did seem to have an effect.

I did this partly from sheer desperation but also partly because I'd seen the steps he'd taken in being able to control his anger and I could see that he had become in control of his violent outbursts so I felt it was fair to do this,

I know that he is currently able to control what he says, and I can see that he is choosing to use the words he does. I can recognise the difference of when he's gone into his hind brain and can't control it and when he hasn't.

So I guess I've been thinking that a similar shock strategy might work again.

I don't know if I'm being unfair.

I have totally given up on social services over the years, personally. After the first social worker, who was amazing, we have had a string of on/off constantly changing, utterly useless ones, support that is put in place only to be pulled suddenly and with no warning. All of the children do not trust any social worker as a result of all this, so I would not actively choose to involve them again.

Yep. This exactly. There is no way on earth I would tolerate this for myself or my other children. How awful.

It sounds horrendously difficult. What's the age gap? Had you left his father when he was 9 then met the younger children's father? Have you split with him too so he has that trauma too?
I dont mean this in a harsh way at all, but just as he was abused by his dad, he's now abusing your younger children, but also with physical violence. You left his dad because of this, but what they're seeing is he's being allowed to stay in and continue his abuse of them. Definitely agree you need support from DV team.

We don't have locks, because when ds self harms he locks himself in somewhere to do it. My bathroom door has been broken down by police twice. Also ds1 has in the past gone into siblings room and destroyed all their things, so if he had a lock to stop anyone coming in that would only make things worse. Unfortunately it's just not a safe option. I know key locks are a thing, but the siblings could not have a key on them at all times, and that would be the only way to make sure only they could lock it. Also ds has broken down doors himself in the past.

The father is all the kids father. Younger siblings are under 4 when I left. Big age gap

I think he needs to live elsewhere. Would your Dad take him?

I'd tell him unless his behaviour improves dramatically to protect his siblings from living in an abusive house the moment he reaches 18 I'd be helping him sort a room in a rented house. It sounds like your other DC have had a dreadful childhood living with an abusive bully. I'd be putting their needs first once he turns 18.

Look up www.pac-uk.org/our-services/cpv/

Also
www.pegsupport.co.uk/

There are specific charities that help with the issue of child violence/abuse towards parents and siblings. You would not be wrong to make him move out and protect your younger children.

Thanks I'll look those up

Given his age and diagnosis do you think he will be able to live independently or will he always need some sort of supported living?

I know they are like hens teeth but I'd be reaching out to external bodies and looking at supported living ventures if possible and contacting any relevant charities that might be able to facilitate it. It seems completely impossible for you all to live like this and isn't doing any of you any favours

This. He needs to leave. You're allowing your other children to be abused.

Sadly this, it doesn't sound like you can even leave him unsupervised with them. Are school aware? I'm surprised if they haven't mentioned in passing to a teacher or their injuries haven't been questioned?
Please don't say they're told not to talk about his abuse.

I don’t have any practical advice, I’m sorry, but I have been on the receiving end of similar, from an older sister, and I and my siblings have never really recovered.

In our fifties now, and still afraid of her.
So please do whatever you have to, to house him elsewhere.
I know my parents didn’t know what to do, but they did nothing, and I know I resent not being protected from her.

I am sorry to hear that, and I am grateful to you for sharing from the siblings perspective. I need to hear that.

Schools are all aware, nothing is hidden. As I said we have had a string of social workers over the years.

I would never tell any of them not to talk about anything like this. I've experienced the damage that silence does. No way, never again (that was me btw being silent at exs demand, not ds. Even when we lived there I never ever told him not to talk about it and he had a counsellor at school from a young age who, when he was young, he did engage with and talked openly to)

I would have put his stuff in a suitcase and dropped him off at his dad's a long time ago.

Is there any supported living he can move to? I assume he will need some sort of support all his life? Is he abusive (physical or verbal) to non family members?

I will look into supported living options.

I can't just pack and drop him off at his dad's. He doesn't want to live there, and I can't force him to leave against his will, unless I had someone to remove him forcibly, which would be awful.