If you can work you should... But why?

[Tryingtokeepgoing]

So, Rachel Reeves is of the opinion that if you can work you should. However, there are millions of us in the 50+ bracket who can work, but don't need or want to work. We are financially self sufficent, happily (ish) paying tax and spending money supporting the services economy on which so much of the country depends. Why should we work? Altruistically, I see my choice not to work as creating opportunities for progression for others...

Why should we work?
What is achieved by encouraging us to work?
If there are benefits to us working, how can she incentivise us to do so?

caveat - I am not a fan of the Telegraph, but it is a direct quote

“If you can work, you should work,” she said after official figures showed worklessness in Britain rose to its highest level in more than a decade.

I'm starting to think we do need something so fundamental like this to actually effect the change we need. Both cheeks of the same arse will just continue to fart around the periphery re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic without making the necessary changes we need.

I never used to like the UBI idea, and still don't really, but I'm definitely coming to see it as the best of a bad job to get things changed.

The problem, though, is what level to set it at. Obviously, alongside it, we'd need to zeroise tax free allowances so that people paid tax on the first penny of extra income, whether wages or savings or property rental, and probably set the rate of tax at a pretty high level, maybe even as high as a straight 50% across all income levels. The tax rate has to be high to pay for everyone getting UBI. So, maybe each individual gets £15k UBI, but then pays 50% flat rate tax on all other income, so if they also had a job paying £50k p.a. their total net income would be £40k (£15k ubi plus 50% net wages on £50k of £25k). Having a maximum tax rate of 50% would certainly make working/earning more an attractive option, without being a punitively high rate. (Someone currently earning £50k p.a. would pay around £10k tax/nic, so net wages would be a similar £40k).

Another problem is that for UBI to work, it would have to be flat rate for all. No "extras" for different circumstances, i.e. it would have to cover housing costs, prescriptions, council tax, bus fares, etc - the moment we start "add ons" for different circumstances, the UBI philosophy falls apart and we're back to square one. Disability benefit "add ons" would be a particular problem that needs resolving, as in theory UBI should be fixed regardless of disabilities/needs with no extra payments based on disability, so to get around that issue, where some disabled people clearly have extra needs that cost money, we'd probably have to move to a care system where the "extras" needed such as carers, special equipment/supplies, extra housing costs, patient transport etc are paid directly from the NHS/care budget and provided free to the person, so they don't need extra benefits on top of UBI - this is the biggest problem in my opinion.

I also have autism/inattentive adhd and burnout. This society does nothing for people like me (not entitled to benefits and living with mother) and I feel no obligation to contribute to society. It’s a shame really because most of us with ASD are quite clever.

JumpingAtShadows it's a joke isn't it. Another neighbour is a single mum with 2 kids, is an English teacher with 3 other tutoring jobs to make ends meet. Gets no help as she earns too much but not enough to just do 1 job and pay all bills. As said a lot..it doesn't pay to work these days.

Just to be clear, I'm not a politician and don't think you should flog yourself to death. I dream of being rich enough not to have to work and put up with the bullshit that comes with it. There is nothing inherently good about work, and the market is shit at attaching value to activities that actually matter. People know this instinctively which is why the overwhelming majority want out as early as possible.

Oh my, these threads always go this way. Even if this was true, which is highly unlikely, it is nothing to do with you, or your life🙄. Talk about over egging the pudding.

Also as PP pointed out the job market is ageist. Nobody wants to hire older people even if they want to work. It's very bad in my industry (IT)

the people that work to live are, in my experience, in the majority. So if those people get to a stage of life where they can have their preferred lifestyle using savings and without working, they will.

the people that live to work will never really understand this, but tend to be the highly motivated people that end up being CEOs, senior civil servants and government ministers, ie the decision makers. A PP hit the nail on the head saying the macroeconomists regard us all as entries on spreadsheets and overlook the human behaviour element.

It's a problem because they, in turn, will get old and need care/pensions in old age, thus requiring even more extra people to be brought in to pay for them as well as everyone else.

It's a problem because the extra people also use other public services/resources like education for their family, benefits, infrastructure, housing, etc - more cost to the taxpayer, and not only money, but where do we build the extra houses and schools and hospitals, can the electricity/water supply cope with ever increasing numbers of people, etc.

It's just another short term fix to bring in more people that contributes to the longer term problems.

Keep your ad hominems going.

Today I've done nothing but earned several thousand on various assets. I employ myself to do nothing but earn money from assets, and continue to pay NI and tax on those earnings.

The problem here clearly isn't able to be expressed in numbers is it. It's the fact that the numbers don't actually represent anything to do with contribution.

You really do lack any form of awareness.

Actually it's a genuine question, driven by a slight concern that this Government seems to be trying to impose some sort of moral obligation on individuals to do what the state sees fit with their time, rather than chose to do what they want.

Or, to put it another way, the traditional view of a democracy is that the elected representatives and the Government are there to carry out the will of the electorate. The direction of travel for many western Governments is that the electorate are fact 'subjects' who should do, and more worryingly in some countries, think what they are told.

I voted Labour hoping the Nurses would get a decent pay rise. I really dislike Rachel Reeves .Me and DH have worked all our lives, Gone without and focused on DC above us .Now we are being told what to do by a snooty woman .Bore off Ms R ,DH working 40 years retired at 65.I have Cancer and am 63 ,shall I "work"? Our heating allowance that we have never claimed swiped away in one fell swoop. People of working age yes of course .others leave us alone!

I'm late 50s with a small private income and a small very part-time business that brings in a little bit of extra money.
As others have said, I would consider working more ONLY if a prospective employer was willing to make it worth my while🤷🏻‍♀️

In the old days a large reserve of young unemployed people meant that employers could get away with treating workers badly.
The old days are gone and with the falling birth rate and aging population they aren't coming back anytime soon. Employers need to cop on and realise that the workers have the upper hand now that labour is in short supply!

As the birth rate in the UK is now well under 2 per woman (assuming this government is happy with that terminology) then we need to either increase that or encourage people to move here othwerwise we are all in the situation where there aren't enough teachers, doctors, nurses etc though don't we? Never mind enough people to create economic output to generate tax income to fund it. We could incentivse people to have more children, but that would be very difficult without driving the wrong sort of behaviour.

People who don't need the money shouldn't have to work. I think they are making a dig about people on the sick faking it/being lazy.
A lot of people who have good qualifications who don't work, it's a bit of a shame. They could be contributing to society with their knowledge and skills. But if they've already had enough and made enough money then why not quit?
I think if someone's got money but no work, it would be nice of them to do some volunteering. But that's up to them really isn't it?

People might consider working longer if there were any benefit for future pension but after 35 years there is nothing more added I think. I am likely to work til 67 do will have 14 years extra NI paid. Also there are loads of people claiming benefits who could be working so I am all for leaving financially independent people alone.

Im 50 and work very part time. I absolutely could work more and probably will in a few years time but right now I’ve got a good work/life balance and my family life is better for my availability.

It is all very well telling people they should be working, but where are the jobs?

Trouble is that the country can't afford to have so many economically inactive people. We need more people working to reduce the crippling debt. Remember we pay more in interest on the country's debt than we spend on education!

Of course, in a democracy, people would rather not work and would rather be given everything on a plate. But regardless of how many people vote for that lazy lifestyle, it's not possible and not sustainable. So we need people to make decisions for the best of the country as a whole, not on an individual level, whether we like it or not.

👋 (very) early retiree here - very much one of the ones the current govt wants to return to work.

I still pay tax on my pension but obviously no NI. I paid shedloads whilst working and have never claimed any sort of benefit, wasn't even eligible for Child Benefit, nor any childcare costs help. So even though I could work for many more years, financially I don't need to and socially, mentally I don't want to. I don't feel bad, I feel I have contributed more than my share already. There is no policy RR could introduce that would tempt me back to the workplace.

If the government want me to work longer, they’ll have to make my job a bit less awful (GP). Otherwise I’ll continue to wind down and be fully retired age 60 in 3 years.

We've lots of people who aren't working at all, lots of people working part time, lots of people working in jobs beneath their abilities and skills.

Before opening the flood gates for even more immigration, we need to massively improve options and choices for people already here. That means a massive improvement in adult education/training, so that people outside the 16-21 age groups have better options for retraining, changing careers, etc.

Over the past 20-30 years, adult education/retraining has been decimated with the concentration of all efforts onto school leavers, in particular Blair's crazy aim of 50% of school leavers going to Uni. Utterly bonkers. There was a time when it was possible for people to retrain in their 20s, 30s and 40s and people did, often by adult education colleges doing evening classes, day release, etc. Most of that old adult education system was scrapped 20-30 years ago. We need it back.

Lots of people don't value education when they're young and end up leaving school/college with minimal skills/qualifications and end up a life on benefits or low skilled minimum wage jobs. They need a second chance at a later stage in life to do something different and retrain.

If we made it more possible for people to retrain, take more qualifications, learn new skills, etc., then we could be less reliant on immigrants. Given the other threads on MN about the potential number of universities having to close down due to falling student numbers and lack of funding, it would seem an ideal opportunity to convert them to adult education/technical colleges (a bit like the old polytechnics some of them used to be), aimed at more mature students wanting to retrain in something different rather than degrees.

😆 Ask three economists for a hypothesis and you’ll get four.

Depends on your income. My state pension plus a couple of workplace pensions is roughly equal to what I was earning so the amount of tax I pay is pretty much equal too, although NI stops at pensionable age.

I know that there are some people that do seem to game the benefits system but I find it hard to believe that there are as many as reported on MN.

If you are out of work and apply for UC there are strict conditions on receiving it relating to searching for a job. If you don't show you are fulfilling these conditions you will be sanctioned. The rate of UC for a single person over 25 is £393.45 per month and for a couple is £617.60. Having children, particularly if they have disabilities can increase this amount substantially but once the children reach 18 this all falls away. If you rent privately your rent is unlikely to be covered in full as this is limited by the Local Housing Allowance which in the majority of cases bears no resemblance to the level of rent actually charged. So I think that all these people "choosing to not work and claiming benefits" are somewhat exaggerated.

Sickness benefits are different but I think if the NHS was in a better state these would diminish considerably.

I think the demonisation of those on benefits is to divide people because the country is in such a bad economic state and when you are blaming others you don't look at what the government are doing.

If there was affordable childcare and housing, if healthcare and working conditions were better, if public services were more on the level they used to be then I think that would go much further to improving the situation.

As other pps have said, the amount contributed by volunteering is often ignored as we are regarded simply as economic units and not people. Services like Citizens Advice and many other charities would simply not be able to function without volunteers.

People have to feel they are part of society to want to contribute and demonising particular groups such as benefit claimants or older people does absolutely nothing to promote this.